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Old 07-20-2009, 10:24 AM   #121
Relit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
So you don't honor the warranty unless the battery falls to 50% of it's rated capacity? Sounds kinda crappy to me...
No, it's Rated Capacity of 120CCA is more than enough to start anything that is designed to use this battery. It is warrantied at the spec listed on the battery. If Braille was replacing every battery they sold which fell below their listed specs, they'd be replacing a lot of them.

The FACT is Braille pumps up the specs on their batteries, markets them as if they're something new and amazing, doubles the MSRP, and rips off anybody who doesn't do a ton of research. Did you know if you put anything besides a Braille charger on these batteries you lose your warranty? They're no different then any other Absorbed Glass Mat battery on the market, just higher quality. They charge just like any other motorcycle battery out there. I'm just here to tip you off to the fact that Braille batteries are a marketing scam.

To prove this point, why do they sell the same battery in a little Carbon Fiber Box for $80 more when it adds weight? But if you read their website it says under the Carbon battery: "When a fraction of a second takes the win."

Sorry about the rant.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:44 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relit
As a disclaimer, I am an employee of a Batteries Plus Franchise and I have to call BS on this comment...

No worries about the rant... but what franchise do you work for?
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:02 PM   #123
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I suspected that Braille was doing some extra special testing/rating. Technically the statements that they make regarding capacity can be repeated, but as Relit suggests, the battery will not last that long if abused to these levels/rates of discharge.

Relit:
Excellent and valid points. I did not think of the terminal posts as being the weight difference, however it makes sense. What has been presented as additional information is helpful, independent of who you work for.

It seems to me to come down to several things; 1. build quality 2. cost 3. customer service 4. warranty (edited with more things that are of value)

If, and it appears to be true, EastPenn is the OEM for both the batteries then build quality should be similar, if there are issues with the batteries then it comes down to CS and Warranty. My interactions and experience working with Braille as a "OEM" has been less than acceptable in comparison to what I experience with other manufacurers or distributors. Hopefully Batteries Plus can improve on this and offer a similar battery, better CS and Warranty for this application.

I am going to get a few X2-9 batteries and I will post my respective "independent" (I do ride a 950 and I do have a Braille installed, I do not work for any battery business) findings here.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:11 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head2Wind
I am going to get a few X2-9 batteries and I will post my respective "independent" (I do ride a 950 and I do have a Braille installed, I do not work for any battery business) findings here.

True. But didn't Braille turn you down as a dealer? Can you still be unbiased if someone else picks you up as a dealer? Keep us informed of what you find...
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:13 PM   #125
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See post #105 above...
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:19 PM   #126
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they did not turn me down I told them that I was not interested. One of reason was their dealer price structures, the other was how they were treating me. Granted everyone has a bad day, so there is one mulligan for the sales guy. However it just continued. I said no thanks, not interested.

I will attempt to be unbiased to the best of my ability. I will attempt to compare the two batteries in such a fashion that my opinion is separated as much as possible. As far as I am concerned, when it comes down to it in the middle of no where, what name is on the battery matters very little so long as it does its job without question.
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:09 PM   #127
Relit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head2Wind
I suspected that Braille was doing some extra special testing/rating. Technically the statements that they make regarding capacity can be repeated, but as Relit suggests, the battery will not last that long if abused to these levels/rates of discharge.

Relit:
Excellent and valid points. I did not think of the terminal posts as being the weight difference, however it makes sense. What has been presented as additional information is helpful, independent of who you work for.

It seems to me to come down to several things; 1. build quality 2. cost 3. customer service 4. warranty (edited with more things that are of value)

If, and it appears to be true, EastPenn is the OEM for both the batteries then build quality should be similar, if there are issues with the batteries then it comes down to CS and Warranty. My interactions and experience working with Braille as a "OEM" has been less than acceptable in comparison to what I experience with other manufacurers or distributors. Hopefully Batteries Plus can improve on this and offer a similar battery, better CS and Warranty for this application.

I am going to get a few X2-9 batteries and I will post my respective "independent" (I do ride a 950 and I do have a Braille installed, I do not work for any battery business) findings here.
It looks like you're in Bellingham, you should call the Batteries Plus in Puyallup and ask for Zack. He is the manager there, is an avid rider, and will be able to set you up with dealer pricing below whats Listed on the website. He'll also ship directly from his store and you'll have them the next day. If you order from www.batteriesplus.com they ship from Wisconsin and will take a lot longer.

I'd love to know what you come up with as far as performance comparison. Zack's number is 253.770.3313
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:31 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head2Wind
I will attempt to be unbiased to the best of my ability. I will attempt to compare the two batteries in such a fashion that my opinion is separated as much as possible. As far as I am concerned, when it comes down to it in the middle of no where, what name is on the battery matters very little so long as it does its job without question.

And this is exactly why you have a great reputation...
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:41 PM   #129
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PC's tag line: "If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical problem..."

If I test hitting the battery with a hammer will it become a electrical problem?

two X2-9s on the way, will have them tomorrow, the punishment (er testing) will begin as soon as I can develop the procedures.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:06 AM   #130
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It seems to me that on my 990, it may not a problem of the battery, which is still the original, now 2.5 years old and in winter needs to be charged for starts. A day ago I rode for 220klms after charging up for about an hour, I didn't use any accessories during the ride and 2 days later the battery is down on power. So, is there system leakage or, is the output of the alternator inadequate?
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:41 AM   #131
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There is a minor system load from the clock in the gauge cluster. Without having more information and based upon what you describe, I would consider replacing the battery. A easy way to test the batteries ability to maintain a charge would be to run the bike and/or put the battery on a charger to ensure that it is at a full state of charge then completely disconnect it from the bike. Measure and record the no load voltage. Leaving it disconnected either over night or for several days, depending on how long you can go without your ride, measure and record the battery voltage again. If it has dropped significantly then the battery is failing.


I would also make sure that the battery charger that you are using while the bike is not being used for extended periods of time is one that is capable of properly maintaining a "sealed"-AGM battery. If the charger sits in "maintain" mode at too high of a voltage for a long period of time it can damage the battery by boiling/venting the electrolyte. With Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid (VRLA):Gelled Electrolyte (gel) and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) Batteries, there is no way to get the electrolyte back into the battery and over time if allowed to over charge too much it will cause the battery to fail prematurely.

Excellent document regarding the VRLA-AGM charging and design. http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:00 AM   #132
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more about batteries

maybe more than we want to know but useful info, pulled from EastPenn's document:

How do I know if a charger is
“gel friendly” or “AGM friendly”?


Unfortunately, many chargers on the market claim to be gel
“friendly” or “OK for sealed batteries”, but are not. Some
overcharge the batteries, while others may not fully charge
the batteries. Some chargers claim to be “smart”. Some “smart”
chargers do a good job, others do not. The best choice of charger
often depends on the application.
Use only “voltage-regulated” or “voltage-limited” chargers.
Standard constant current or taper current chargers must not be
used. The voltage must fall in the range of the chart on page 11.
Almost all applications require temperature sensing and voltage
compensation. Beware, many chargers measure the ambient
temperature which could be significantly different from the battery’s
internal temperature.
Low frequency current ripple (to about 333 Hz) can be detrimental
to sealed batteries depending on the application. On applications
where the charger is connected continuously to a float voltage,
especially where simultaneous charge and discharge may occur,
the level of current ripple must be a consideration.
If you are not sure if a charger is performing properly, follow this
procedure:
a. Using a fully discharged VRLA battery (OCV about 11.8V)
and a digital voltmeter, record the initial open circuit
voltage at the battery terminals.
b. Using an automatic charger as described above,
set voltage if adjustable (14.1V for gel, 14.4V for
AGM models).
c. Connect and start charging. Record initial on-charge
voltage and current .
d. Each hour or so, check and record the on-charge voltage
across the battery terminals. Except for occasional, brief
“blips” or pulses, the voltage should not exceed the voltage
limits noted in “b” above.
e. At the end of charge (when the current is very low or goes
to zero) check and record the voltage. Note that the charger
may have turned off by then.
f. The disconnected battery should be at 100% or above after a
24 hour rest.
During the charging time, the charger should not have exceeded
the limit (except for occasional, brief pulses). This indicates that
the charger is working properly.
Keep in mind that the voltage limit is at 68°F/20°C. Charging at
higher or lower temperatures will change this limit.
A temperature-sensing charger should always be used, as
manual adjustments are never accurate and will damage any
VRLA battery.




also how do I know if my battery is toasted?------------

How can you tell if a VRLA battery has
been damaged by under- or overcharging?
The only way is with a load test. Use the same
procedure you would use with a wet cell battery:
a. Recharge if the open circuit voltage is below 75%.
b. If adjustable, set the load at 1⁄2 the CCA rating or
three times the 20 hour rate.
c. Apply the load for 15 seconds. The voltage should
stabilize above 9.6 volts while on load.
d. If below 9.6 volts, recharge and repeat test.
e. If below 9.6 volts a second time, replace the battery.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:57 PM   #133
mysterio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head2Wind
There is a minor system load from the clock in the gauge cluster. Without having more information and based upon what you describe, I would consider replacing the battery. A easy way to test the batteries ability to maintain a charge would be to run the bike and/or put the battery on a charger to ensure that it is at a full state of charge then completely disconnect it from the bike. Measure and record the no load voltage. Leaving it disconnected either over night or for several days, depending on how long you can go without your ride, measure and record the battery voltage again. If it has dropped significantly then the battery is failing.


I would also make sure that the battery charger that you are using while the bike is not being used for extended periods of time is one that is capable of properly maintaining a "sealed"-AGM battery. If the charger sits in "maintain" mode at too high of a voltage for a long period of time it can damage the battery by boiling/venting the electrolyte. With Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid (VRLA):Gelled Electrolyte (gel) and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) Batteries, there is no way to get the electrolyte back into the battery and over time if allowed to over charge too much it will cause the battery to fail prematurely.

Excellent document regarding the VRLA-AGM charging and design. http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf
Charger is a Projecta 1600ma 'Charge and Maintain' with a 240v 50Hz 0.2A 28W input for lead acid batteries. Cut out is 14.2V and cut in 13.4V
What is the output of the 990?
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:41 PM   #134
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Received the X2-9 batteries, started doing the comparisons to the B106 Braille. Based upon what I can tell, externally these are identical batteries. Cases, markings, posts and everything external except the labels are very similar.

Both the X2-9 batteries came in one day, one had 12.63v and one was at 12.79.

I put both on my OptiMate 4 smart charger until it went into "maintain" mode, let them sit over night and rechecked Vdc. both have settled to ~ 12.7-12.8Vdc range.

I slid one of them into a 950 that I am working on that needed a battery, real world use/testing will commence with that battery. the second one will be used for load testing as soon as I get my hands on a carbon pile......

Short of cutting them open and comparing the internals I will do load/charge testing as soon as I acquire some equipment.
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:07 PM   #135
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...you don't say

Hmmm imagine that. I am shocked.
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