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Old 12-07-2008, 09:32 AM   #16
crazydrummerdude
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Every day, I learn something new on here.
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Old 12-07-2008, 07:07 PM   #17
ROSKO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodweiser
...Rosko - that link didn't work for me. sounds really interesting though.
try this: http://www.hemeyla.nl/ it's dutch(?) so look for a tab TECHNIEK then choose motor, chassis etc.




NOW, for anyone who wants to imagine what the 50cc triple must have sounded like....
a Van Veen Kreidler (single) at 16,000+ rpm:




now open that in three windows and play all at once!
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:31 AM   #18
DaveTheYank
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Honda still makes them. Why not get a new one?



http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/dream50r/index.html

Seems like it would be a kick as a track bike!
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:56 AM   #19
datchew
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the geek in me left over from dynamics class is trying to wrap my head around the loads those wristpins are seeing from jerking back and forth that quickly and the stress on those moving parts from such speeds.

That's insane. Those numbers are outside of the limit of being able to have a "sense of them" and are so high, they're just numbers. Just numbers.

holy crap. Very cool stuff.
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:13 PM   #20
mark1305
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Datchew, just think for another minute how the engineers that designed much of this stuff in the 60s were probably doing the majority of the calculations on slide rules!!!
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:13 PM   #21
datchew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1305
Datchew, just think for another minute how the engineers that designed much of this stuff in the 60s were probably doing the majority of the calculations on slide rules!!!
I'm humbled everyday. Alot was accomplished before I was ever born and I should keep that in mind.

Hell, the jumble of clusterf*** at work when they try to get a group to do a simple FEA and some heat transfer work. Then a crusty old fart does a crude hand calc with some basic assumptions and 3 months later, the analysis team's "product" comes out to match his. It's hilarious.

Yet one more reason to grow more old school everyday.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:34 PM   #22
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A few guys race those with the USCRA 50cc class, while they look the part they are far from the old GP machines. Actually pretty slow, most of the guys running them have the added the HRC race kit.... big $$$. What is cool about those is that every few years they release a limited street legal version with lights, would be fun for a run to the shops!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheYank
Honda still makes them. Why not get a new one?



http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/dream50r/index.html

Seems like it would be a kick as a track bike!
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:43 AM   #23
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That little Suzuki reminds me of the RC166: delicate little pistons, creative, elegant engineering that pushes the limits of what should be possible....at least in my little mind.

Cool stuff.
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:49 PM   #24
knary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norton73



Edmucate the unwashed masses
indeed

Give me as many of those single cubic inch cylinders as I have molars and just imagine the chaos.
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Old 01-14-2011, 06:48 PM   #25
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Little Nipponese Buzzers

I first got involved with these small-bore production racers while studying at Kyoto University in 1963. Against all odds (namely, parental opposition) I had purchased a CB-72 for daily use, riding back and forth through the mountain pass separating Otsu (a small city at the end of Lake Biwa) to class in Kyoto.

On Sunday I'd ride down to Suzuka, in Mie Prefecture, in my leathers, tape up the headlights and go "racing" - open practice, run-watcha-brung, as the Honda track was not much in use those days, apart from the annual GP race.

I met a certain gentleman from Wakamiya Honda in Gifu who had brought a CR-93 to practice with, and ended up buying this machine off him. Of all the production racers which Honda built those days this was the one that was quite successful in international events. The 250s and 305s were more like Nightmares than Dreams, as they'd blow at the slightest excuse. The 50 was reasonably strong but it was still a diesel, therefore uncompetitive against 2smokers.

I took the CR with me back to the US and raced it at events in Texas and eventually in the last USGP to be held at the wretched Daytona toilet bowl, aka "road circuit". Rick Schell had a couple of CRs that were turning not 11,500 rpm (safe redline for the off-the-shelf CRs) but nearly 14,000. He wound his own valve springs as according to him this was the limiting factor in the design.

I'm one of those racers who should have been born rich (like Hailwood, ha ha) because I hate to work on them as much as I love to ride them, but I had to tear that CR-93 down every other race and change the valve springs, as they'd settle and you'd feel the valves start to bounce.

Which reminds me: with a hand-beaten aluminum fairing and straight-cut gear drive to the twin cams, the mechanical shriek of these machines was either an eardrum-destroying howl or sweet music to your ears (the latter certainly in my own case). All the sound would be reflected back onto the rider, and you'd quickly learn to shift by ear.

The story goes that Mike Hailwood once claimed the CR-93 was the best production racer he ever rode. Considering the abysmal handling of most production Japanese motorcycles (and racers too, particularly in the large-bore category) that is saying something. Mike was also a beefy, barrel-chested kind of guy who must have been giving away nearly 30kg to the tiny Japanese riders (who were forced to wear lead belts like divers when the FIM decreed a 50kg minimum weight), so it could not have been that comfortable.

The Japanese at that time were incredibly secretive and paranoid about industrial espionage (how else do you think they themselves moved forward so quickly?) so it was near-impossible to learn anything about the engineering of these machines. The shot of the Suzuki square four 125 above must have been taken at a very opportune moment as the factory mechanics would scurry about covering everything up and shooing away photographers.

When I worked as Japan Correspondent for CYCLE WORLD in 1969 I had a chance to ride a prototype Kawasaki square-four 125 at their so-called "test track" in Akashi. It was actually a short straight with an "eye of the needle" loop at the end. Some race track.

The 125 was alleged to be good for 38hp, but that would only emerge between 13,000 and 13,500rpm. Below that you'd only get a dull burr from the engine with practically no pull and beyond the redline you're flirting with Jesus.

Imagine flying into a dark and drippy corner on a bumpy Isle of Man section with the fog moving in and the rain streaming down. One second you're getting nothing from the lump and the next it snaps the rear wheel out from under you - but then you have to shift again.

It should also be noted that the Japanese engineers were blithely unconcerned with feedback from the (mostly European) riders... and the Japanese test riders who rode GP were inexperienced and couldn't really help with development. This limited the Japanese severely all the way through until the 1980s, when a younger, more confident generation of Japanese engineers began to work closely with their riders in development.

Sorry to have gone on and on so long but seeing these old machines definitely percolated the brain cells. Here I am with the CR-93 about to go racing on some godforsaken abandoned runway in West Texas, with the Harleys and the Beezers:








Nearly impossible to ride. You could never remember which gear you were in but didn't have to really because you'd have to shift to another before you could figure it out. I remember that Hugh Anderson complained bitterly about having to "row around the course" on the little Suzukis: no power valves, primitive CDIs.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:17 PM   #26
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Thanks for the in person post. Very interesting!
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:33 PM   #27
nella
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Bblacky... I can't see your pics.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:52 PM   #28
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One of Honda's jewels. The RC149.




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Old 01-14-2011, 07:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBlacky View Post
Sorry to have gone on and on so long but seeing these old machines definitely percolated the brain cells.
Sorry? The only thing I'm sorry about is that you stopped writing. Fascinating stories told well. Thank you. I'm going back to read it again right now.

And it's not a surprise that Jinx started this thread two years ago. I always appreciate his edumecational posts.

Bless you both.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:00 PM   #30
bk brkr baker
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If you would like to see a nice collection of 50cc racers ( along with hundreds of other bikes) Barbers has couple of dozen.
The style and workmanship of these mini racers is equal to Moto GP machines today. If you are a normal size human ,they won't work for you.
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