1st responder to a bike crash......what to do?

[v4rider]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Washington does not and I am sure there are others.

Google is your friend:

Washington State Good Samaritan Act

Over the years people have hesitated involving themselves in an emergency, in fear of being sued. In fact, I am not aware of damages ever being awarded for a person doing the right and humane thing. The Good Samaritan Act has been adopted in over 36 states in the USA. In addition, each state has their own form of Immunity Act(s). These acts are safeguards for bystanders and first responders attempting to perform life saving procedures such as first CPR and first aid. In Washington, the Good Samaritan Act is statutorily defined in the Revised Code of Washington (RCW), last revised in 1985, and is as follows: RCW § 4. 24. 300 Persons rendering emergency care or transportation - Immunity from liability - Exclusion Any person, including but not limited to a volunteer provider of emergency or medical services, who without compensation or the expectation of compensation renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency or who participates in transporting, not for compensation, therefrom an injured person or persons for emergency medical treatment shall not be liable for civil damages resulting from any act or omission in the rendering of such emergency care or in transporting such persons, other than acts or omissions constituting gross negligence or wilful or wanton misconduct. Any person rendering emergency care during the course of regular employment and receiving compensation or expecting to receive compensation for rendering such care is excluded from the protection of this subsection. [Added by Laws 1975, chapter 58-1. Amended by Laws 1985, chapter 443-19, effective July 1, 1985]

[vagt6]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Washington does not and I am sure there are others.

All of them have laws which protect well-meaning first responders.

If you're so sure that some don't, show us.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by vagt6

All

?

The Good Samaritan Act has been adopted in over 36 states in the USA.

OK, I should have stated that WA in not under the Good Samaritan Act.

The statute in WA is very week by comparison however and offers much less protection. (as per the Coast Guard Commander in Astoria, OR. where I got my first aid training last week)
I would definitely take this into consideration as to how I respond. In Oregon, I would not need to hire a lawyer. In WA. I would most likelly need one.
There are you happy now?

[HammerFIRE]

+1 to the things said.

I am a firefighter/EMT and have responded on numerous wrecks both in the ambulance and stopping to help outside my jurisdiction. While we call you "bystanders" I have always been impressed that people are willing to stop and help even though they have no duty or responsibility to do so. There are a lot of good people out there. Thank you.

This thread is probably one of the most important I have read. Getting more people to know what to do when they come upon an accident can save a life. The life they save might even be mine.

#1 Personal safety. Look at the scene when you first arrive to make sure it is safe to proceed. Intersections are deadly because cars can come from multiple directions. Tunnel vision is particularly bad because we don't look around enough. We just head to the victim with a good opportunity to become the victim ourselves.

I came up to a downed cyclist in the right hand lane of a 4 lane highway. I stopped in that lane with the rider about 30 feet in front of my truck (my flashers on). I used my truck to block the lane so the rider and I would be protected. I was in a neighboring jurisdiction so I knew where the ambulance and fire dept. would come from and I didn't block their path. Be careful here. It is a dangerous situation.

#2 BSI - Body Substance Isolation. I keep latex gloves in my medical kit on my bike and in my car. I won't touch anyone bleeding if it is going to get on me. I don't like other people's cooties. If I have to give CPR I use a barrier device. You can learn all about it in your CPR/First Aid class.

Now I can approach.

#3 DO NOT move the victim unless they are not breathing. Every downed cyclist should be considered to have neck and back injuries. DO NOT remove the helmet (if they are smart enough to wear one) unless they are absolutely not breathing and you are willing to do CPR. We are trained to remove them but it is a little tricky.

#4 Check for breathing: Ask them if they are OK. If they talk back, they are breathing. If they are unconscious, check for signs of breathing. (CPR class here folks)

#5 Follow CPR guidelines.

#6 Bleeding: direct compress on the wound. Wear your gloves.

#7 Broken Bones: Don't worry about them. People usually don't die from broken bones. It's the 'not breathing' and the bleeding that will get you. That said, leave the break as you find it. Moving it around can sever arteries and veins. Wait for the Fire Department.

#8 Shock: Yep, people die from shock. Cover them with a blanket. Don't cover their head unless they are dead. It freaks the victim out. They think they died. (N00b mistake).

The real problem is that most of us don't know what to do with loopy people. Those who think they are OK but aren't. Don't be afraid to call 911. It was a wreck. And all the Fire/Ambulance people I know would rather be called out. DO NOT call 911 to cancel the ambulance. There is no need. Let the cops or the ambulance make that decision. If the victim says don't call 911, do it anyway. You might want to get out of earshot for that. (Safety first).

If they are loopy, try to keep them from moving around. Most will try to get up and walk it off. Keep them calm. Do not restrain them. You don't want to get smacked. If they start walking down the road, walk with them to keep them safe (stay safe yourself). Call 911 again and tell the operator what is happening. Ask them to sit by the side of the road. Don't be offended if the fire/EMS folks don't spend a lot of time with you. We are trying to do a full patient assessment. They will want to know if you saw the accident and the mechanism of injury, ie. did their head it the tree, etc. We really appreciate your help.

#9 Don't worry about the bikes. Everyone thinks they have to get the bikes out of the road. As long as nobody is going to swerve into you to miss them, leave them where they are. They are probably totaled anyway. Don't hurt yourself moving them. Also, they are a good indicator for people to slow down.

#10 After you are safely away, give yourself a pat on the back for doing the right thing . Go home, hug your kids, and wear your freakin lid.

#11 You might feel a little strange afterwards. Being part of a traumatic accident is rough. If you are having problems dealing with it, seek help from a psychologist. I have been pretty messed up for a day or two after some of the worst ones. Talk with someone about it. What you did, how you feel. It helps.

[smittyl]

right on the money

[Trailryder42]

Another Firefighter/EMT here. +1 on everything mentioned.

Sometimes "Loopy" doesn't quite describe how someone with a head injury can be. They can become down right violent, lots of screaming and thrashing about. It's not conscious on their part, it's the injury to the brain. In such an instance, if they had other obvious deformaties/injuries, that's one case in which you 'would' try to restrain them if the manpower was on hand to do so.

[HammerFIRE]

Originally Posted by Trailryder42

Another Firefighter/EMT here. +1 on everything mentioned.

Sometimes "Loopy" doesn't quite describe how someone with a head injury can be. They can become down right violent, lots of screaming and thrashing about. It's not conscious on their part, it's the injury to the brain. In such an instance, if they had other obvious deformaties/injuries, that's one case in which you 'would' try to restrain them if the manpower was on hand to do so.

Agreed. I have had to do this. We had a head injury on a 16 year old kid. It took 6 of us to restrain him. In my experience, one person doesn't stand a chance. You need manpower in this situation. Again, I can't stress personal safety enough.

[MikeyT]

It is my opinion that everyone should have First Aid/CPR/AED training. Not that it should be mandatory, but every concerned person should voluntarily take a beginner course. And a refresher every two or three years. Don't know where? Call your local Red Cross chapter or the American Heart Association. There are other organizations as well.

[vagt6]

Here's a good piece from "FC&S Bulletins", a professional journal for insurance execs:

Good Samaritan Doctrine and Law July, 2008, FC&S

The Good Samaritan doctrine is a legal principle constructed to encourage unpaid persons to voluntarily rescue or provide medical assistance without fear of being successfully sued for wrongdoing. Good Samaritan statutes exist in all fifty states and the District of Columbia. These laws protect almost everyone in thirty-five of the fifty-one jurisdictions. The other states provide protection only to specified classes of rescuers, such as physicians or those trained or certified in first aid or CPR. There are some federal statutes that provide some degree of freedom from liability under specific circumstances. Generally these laws do not preempt state laws. The Aviation Medical Assistance Act of 1998, for example, provides protection from liability to persons who use an automated external defibrillator (AED) on an aircraft. All fifty states and the federal government have enacted defibrillator laws or regulations, but not all of those jurisdictions have Good Samaritan protection built into their AED statutes or codes. Good Samaritan laws generally pertain to medical assistance, especially when the emergency is life threatening. Life threatening events typically include cardiac arrest, no pulse, not breathing, severe bleeding, and shock. Rescuers who cause or aggravate injuries during an attempt to remove a victim from the immediate scene of an accident or medical event may or may not be protected by Good Samaritan statutes. Statutory coverage is generally granted when the rescuer provides treatment in a reasonable manner, and may be restricted to persons who have appropriate training to deliver such treatment. Gross negligence and treatment for which the person is not trained to provide are not protected by statute in some jurisdictions. In almost all U.S. jurisdictions there is no duty to assist. Where such duty does exist, calling 9-1-1 may suffice. The laws do not require rescuers to put themselves in danger, including the potential danger of contracting a blood-borne disease. However, many jurisdictions will require that, once a rescue is commenced, the rescuer must continue to save the victim. The rescuer may cease that attempt only under specified conditions, such as stopping to call 9-1-1, exhaustion, the rescuer is placed in danger, the rescue is transferred to a person with equal or more training – such as an ambulance crew – the victim recovers, or the victim is declared dead by a qualified medical person. In light of 9-11, several natural disasters, and a concern that the country may one day have a pandemic event, several states (such as Iowa and Georgia) have enacted legislation to provide a broader range of liability immunity for specified elements the community at large, including corporations and their directors, officers, and employees. These enhanced exemptions would go into effect if the governor or a federal agency declared an emergency. While Good Samaritan laws provide immunity from liability, they do not prevent a victim from filing a lawsuit. There are unresolved liability issues in many states, such as aggravation of a non-life threatening injury during treatment, lack of victim consent, implied consent – e.g., when the victim is unconscious – or a parent’s refusal to grant consent for emergency treatment without which the minor could not survive. The court may dismiss a "wrongful injury" civil suit if, in the eyes of the court, the defendant is protected by a Good Samaritan statute. But the issue may be grey, and a trial could go forth. Hence, there could be defense costs. In states where the law is not all encompassing, there may still be immunity under common law. Or a jury may nullify the law in a particular lawsuit if the rescuer acted in good faith and in a reasonable and ethical manner.

[Moto_Muffin]

Re: Fear of being sued.

I've been on the wreck side of all this, and I have to tell you, the people who stopped to help me were angels in my eyes. The driver of the car that hit me was a useless, blubbering mess, but there was a gentleman (glasses and a greying mustache was all I could see; he had a full-face lid on) on a white/multi Suzuki GSXRish sportbike... to this day I don't know who he was but his presence was SO calming. I knew he knew what I was going through and I knew he was there to help. He discovered I was on my way to meet my husband for lunch when I was broadsided, and when the ambulance crew took over he went on to my destination, and found my husband. He was my guardian angel. Whoever you are, man, I don't remember if I thanked you, but I wish I could at least buy you a beer.

Read the "rider hits deer in san diego on 56" thread in face plant. You'll get an understanding about how very much it means to have a fellow motorcyclist stop and help at your own crash. I can't stress this enough. It means SO MUCH to a downed biker to have another biker there to help.

Please don't let fear of litigation stop you from helping at a crash scene. The possibility that you'll be sued is so minimal and the reassurance you lend to the hurt motorcyclist at the scene is SO HUGE in comparison. Please please please. If there are no emergency vehicles there, stop. You're someone's guardian angel.

[MrBigBallz]

One of my former EMT instructors (Military) was sued in civil court for cracking a few ribs while doing CPR. An overweight, bluehaired (geriatric), female had hit the deck while in line at an ATM machine.

A year later the case went to jury trial and after review the Judge said; "Madam, you're suing for pain and suffering and loss of wages ?" "Had it not been for this man's heroic efforts, you would not be standing in my courtroom today. You owe him a profound "Thank You" and I should award him pain and suffering for having to endure this unwarranted fiasco." "Case dismissed."

Sometimes you just have to crack a few eggs when making an omlette.

[jeffray1001]

Originally Posted by MrBigBallz

One of my former EMT instructors (Military) was sued in civil court for cracking a few ribs while doing CPR. An overweight, bluehaired (geriatric), female had hit the deck while in line at an ATM machine.

A year later the case went to jury trial and after review the Judge said; "Madam, you're suing for pain and suffering and loss of wages ?" "Had it not been for this man's heroic efforts, you would not be standing in my courtroom today. You owe him a profound "Thank You" and I should award him pain and suffering for having to endure this unwarranted fiasco." "Case dismissed."

Sometimes you just have to crack a few eggs when making an omlette.

Good for him...I just hope he didn't have to pay for a lawyer...some people..Let the fat bitch die next time...LOL

[JakeCWU]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

?

The Good Samaritan Act has been adopted in over 36 states in the USA.

OK, I should have stated that WA in not under the Good Samaritan Act.

The statute in WA is very week by comparison however and offers much less protection. (as per the Coast Guard Commander in Astoria, OR. where I got my first aid training last week)
I would definitely take this into consideration as to how I respond. In Oregon, I would not need to hire a lawyer. In WA. I would most likelly need one.
There are you happy now?

Here's the statute from Washington's Legislature website. RCW 4.24.300:

(1) Any person, including but not limited to a volunteer provider of emergency or medical services, who without compensation or the expectation of compensation renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency or who participates in transporting, not for compensation, therefrom an injured person or persons for emergency medical treatment shall not be liable for civil damages resulting from any act or omission in the rendering of such emergency care or in transporting such persons, other than acts or omissions constituting gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct. Any person rendering emergency care during the course of regular employment and receiving compensation or expecting to receive compensation for rendering such care is excluded from the protection of this subsection.

Fairly clear.

Part II: God bless the CG, but remember that as a federal agency they are covered under federal law, not state statute. I would therefore add a bit of salt to their information.

G-

[Trailryder42]

I can't count the number of older people I've had to do CPR on and felt the ribs crack/separate. To get the compression depth required for proper CPR, it's very common.

Originally Posted by MrBigBallz

One of my former EMT instructors (Military) was sued in civil court for cracking a few ribs while doing CPR. An overweight, bluehaired (geriatric), female had hit the deck while in line at an ATM machine.

[GoGo Gadget]

Originally Posted by v4rider

Google is your friend:

Washington State Good Samaritan Act

Hey, give him a break. It has only been on the books for 33 years. You can't expect people to stay up on every new law do you?