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Old 07-26-2010, 08:37 PM   #451
Singletrack_mind
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Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Northern New Mexico
Oddometer: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek
I was surprised to see it not vent faster as well. On my other two bikes one vent is in the gas tank cap, and the other a same valve on top of the cap. I went checked them.....and they vented out way faster. After removing my CC.....I left the valve in there, but was/is wary with the issues the f/i system have on this bike. I don`t want to be a catalyst for trouble. That said.....if mine give me the faintest overpressure.......valve will be removed.


Erling
If you removed your CC, I presume you capped off the vacuum line from the intake. . . so what provides the vacuum required to open the little valve we are talking about? If I understand you correctly, you chose to leave that in, presumably with the vent line just routed to ground, right? Knowing that your valve bleeds just as slow as mine without the vacuum to open it, I'm surprised you haven't had any pressure build-up problems. I guess usually, in the absence of great atmospheric & temperature fluctuations, the gas pressure in the tank wouldn't build too fast for that slow bleed.

I'm thinking that if I remove the CC, this little valve is going away too.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:45 PM   #452
ebrabaek
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Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack_mind
If you removed your CC, I presume you capped off the vacuum line from the intake. . . so what provides the vacuum required to open the little valve we are talking about? If I understand you correctly, you chose to leave that in, presumably with the vent line just routed to ground, right? Knowing that your valve bleeds just as slow as mine without the vacuum to open it, I'm surprised you haven't had any pressure build-up problems. I guess usually, in the absence of great atmospheric & temperature fluctuations, the gas pressure in the tank wouldn't build too fast for that slow bleed.

I'm thinking that if I remove the CC, this little valve is going away too.
Well..... It vented a little......So my thought was remove only the CC...... I have not seen any pressure build up......I check it after sitting in the hot 100 deg. So it must work......
http://www.advrider.com/forums
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:55 PM   #453
cheelleebutt
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Joined: May 2007
Location: Monrovia, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
A question. Have you tried adding 1oz of chevron techron concentrate per gallon to every 5th or so tank of gas?
Hi Joel,

No. I haven't thought of doing that. I will definitely try. I'm at my wits end and will try anything to prevent the FI/FP from going south again. If what you say about Chevron is true. I don't mind sticking to that brand. I've always had success with Chevron in the past. Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go and hope for the best in the future. I'll let you know as I go. This is like an extended duration test.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:14 PM   #454
itsatdm
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Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack_mind
If you removed your CC, I presume you capped off the vacuum line from the intake. . . so what provides the vacuum required to open the little valve we are talking about? If I understand you correctly, you chose to leave that in, presumably with the vent line just routed to ground, right? Knowing that your valve bleeds just as slow as mine without the vacuum to open it, I'm surprised you haven't had any pressure build-up problems. I guess usually, in the absence of great atmospheric & temperature fluctuations, the gas pressure in the tank wouldn't build too fast for that slow bleed.

I'm thinking that if I remove the CC, this little valve is going away too.

Last fall I disconnected the cannister. Left the tank valve in because of my concern over leakage in a spill. Plugged the hose to the manifold.
Now that the weather has heated up, I am noticing a pressure build up within the tank. Now I know why.
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:10 PM   #455
DockingPilot
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My cannister and valve are long gone. 12k later and not one issue. When it was new, the tank did build pressure. An abnormal amount too.
Now,tank vented to atmosphere and vent line runs down below, like the line from a carb'd bike does. Manifold coming out of the back of the airbox is capped and valve tossed in a box under my work bench.
Ive ridden it in 108 degree temps with no ill effects and I fill the tank to the brim.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:07 PM   #456
JRWooden
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Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The great state of confusion
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One "experiment" that might be worth trying is putting the "straw" from a can of WD-40 or similar in the gas filler hole and closing the lid ... the lid will close and seal fairly well while at the same time the straw will pretty much assure that the tank is vented ... unless we have some HUGE disturbance going on ...

I've never had the problem, but being the paranoid type carry a straw in my tool kit
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:01 PM   #457
Singletrack_mind
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Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Northern New Mexico
Oddometer: 365
what the dealer says

I finally got my bike in to the dealer so they could have a go at figuring out why it died on me a couple weeks ago as described a few pages back. They feel it is a faulty control unit for the fuel pump. It is also possible that the fuel pump has been damaged by the bad control unit or visa-versa, so the pump is being replaced as well. The bad controllers were apparently first generation parts, mine was an early bike (labeled a 2009 but received by me in November of '08).

This would certainly be a possibility in terms of why the bike died, and then behaved as it did, running for 60 seconds and then dying, then running another 60 & dying again over the next 30 miles. The dealership says they had another bike exhibit similar symptoms just the week before I brought mine it, and it had also been to high altitude on a hot day when it died.

This does not address the ridiculous pressure that built up in the tank that day, so I will probably pull off the CC and venting plumbing. I plan on leaving the tip-over switch installed in the tank, but removing the one-way valve located about 3" behind where the vent hose leaves the tank. I will replace it with a motocross style ball check-valve that should let vapor in or out with no resistance, but will hopefully prevent fuel from ejecting out the vent tube on hard accel with a full tank & who knows when else. Come to think of it, I may just change that valve for the MX piece & leave the CC & purge equipment in place . . .

BTW; what I am calling a "one way valve" is not entirely one way, and should be opened by vacuum from the purge valve if working properly. I checked Joel's terminology and he didn't identify this valve: "One hose goes from the fuel tank vent which is somewhat behind the fuel filler opening and under the rear fairing, you can see the connection with the seat removed. This "fuel tank vent hose" goes unbroken* to the rear top of the charcoal canister." Actually, the hose is not "unbroken", this is where the "one-way" valve is. There must be a name for it.

Singletrack_mind screwed with this post 08-04-2010 at 12:56 PM
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:43 AM   #458
JRWooden
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There is another Joel-thread somewhere in which he describes that valve in more detail including how much pressure/vacuum it needs to pass vapors.

I just can't find it at the moment.......
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Old 08-12-2010, 06:09 AM   #459
CycleRider
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Location: Twin Cities
Oddometer: 662
Stalled Again

You can add me to the list of those that have had their fuel pumps and injectors replaced and have had another failure.

Yesterday, I needed to take a trip that was approx. 200 miles round trip. At the start of the trip, I needed to fill the tank as the warning light came on indicating that I had 31 miles left in the tank. As I took an uphill exit from the freeway to get gas, the bike stalled at the top of the exit. I was able to restart it and complete the 1/2 block to the station, but it stalled again as I pulled up to the pump. When I unlocked the gas cap there was a huge "whoosing" of air" and I was thankful that there was no gas to accompany it. I filled the tank, and after a couple of false starts, the engine ran smoothly. I proceeded on my trip, cruising at about 65-70mph. I had completed about 80 of the 100 miles without incident, dealing with traffic, construction, Stop Lights and Signs, as well as excessive heat. As I let off the throttle to pull up to an intersection, it died once again, and this time I was unable to get it restarted. I was sitting in 95 plus index heat that was unbearable. I called my AAA service and they were there and had my bike loaded within less than 45 minutes, probably closer to 30. They hauled my bike back to my local dealer as I found a ride so I was able to complete my trip.

I don't think there are any unique clues in my story. Just more of the same to add to the others. To me, it acted just like the good old Vapor Lock that we used to deal with when I was a kid. It probably would have restarted if I had waited long enough, but in that heat, I was not about to wait long enough to find out.

So, I will hope to find out more today from my Dealer and I will provide an update when I know more.

T...
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Old 08-12-2010, 06:18 AM   #460
DockingPilot
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Location: Andover, N.J.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideABeam
I don't think there are any unique clues in my story. T...
Just that you have the cannister and relief valve still installed.
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Old 08-12-2010, 06:27 AM   #461
CycleRider
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Location: Twin Cities
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Good Point

Good Point - I will followup.

Thank You!

T ...
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:59 AM   #462
CycleRider
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Unhappy

Okay, you can now add me to the list of "Unhappy" F650gs owners.

I have now experienced 2 stalls that pretty much disabled my bike.

The first time, they replaced the fuel pump and injectors.

This time, they replaced the injectors.

Before anyone jumps on me for not removing the cannister and fuel valve, let's just say that would not be a very popular option with BMW, the EPA, or my Dealer. This option was discussed with my Dealer. I am not interested in voiding the remaining 2 years on my warranty.

My biggest complaint is that from the time the pump/injectors were replaced to the next install, the bike sat in my garage, waiting for the next ride. So, all I did was bring it home from the dealer, took it for a ride and fouled the injectors again. The only recommended solution to this problem currently is to replace the pump and or injectors.

So, all I have to do is wait for a hot day and find a more convenient place to stall. Or void my warranty.

I feel I am trapped between my Dealer and Corporate, and not sure anyone is going to bat for me. Of course I am told that there is no charge for parts or labor, but what about leaving me to stand in 95 plus degree heat waiting for AAA to pick me up, 75 miles from home? And what about having a reliable bike to ride during our short riding season in Minnesota?

Like I said, just add me to the List.

T...
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:52 AM   #463
atcvelo
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Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Flagstaff
Oddometer: 2
Puke Latest on the F800/F650 Stalling

Ok, So we all know that the 800 and 650 are having stalling issues, duh right. There have been multiple lines of evidence pointing to a fuel issue. Whether that issue is the pump, the injectors or possibly the charcoal canister. The stalling seems to manifest itself more in the heat than any other time. I might have one more piece to add to the pie.

Just got back from a two week continental divide trip with some friends on my 2009 F800gs. A little back ground, this bike has stalled twice on me, once on the way to the dealer for the 600 mi service, ironic, and once on the way back from the dealer, both times I was JRA. Both times were in Phoenix in 100+ temps. After some forum research I removed the charcoal canister hoping it was a vacuum problem. For months the bike ran fine, but I was in the cooler temps of Flagstaff. When we left for our trip I assumed the problem had fixed itself, but I still had a tiny bit of doubt buried in the back of my mind.
The bike ran great for the first few days. One day though, we had to drop out of the high country down to Espanolla, NM where the temps where in the low nineties. As we where making our way back towards the mountains, boom, total failure, the bike would restart then go about another 500m and die. We were stuck in the creepy little town of El Rico, NM.
Ok, nothing new here right. Luckily there was a dealer in Sante Fe, 60 mi to the south. I got on the phone with the dealer, and we got the bike towed to Sante Fe.
Heres were this becomes of more value. The dealer said they had just received an email from BMW USA addressing this issue with the new twins. Now this was the first time I have heard of anyone actually admitting that there is a problem. He stated and I quote "Replacing the fuel pump alone simply wont do, it is more of a problem with the fuel pump controller than anything, for some reason the electronics in the fuel pump controller are freaking out in the heat". So the parts we over nighted and the next afternoon we were on the road.
The bike ran great the rest of the trip and the true test came when we looped back trough Zion and Hurricane, UT where the temps were in the upper 90's. The bike sat in the sun at lunch in 95 degrees. No problems, road another 5 hrs on and off again through the desert in 85-95 degrees, worked great, haven't had any problems since.
On a interesting side note, a friend who was on the trip as well, also riding a 2009 f800gs had his fuel pump already replaced when it stalled in Tuscon, but this was over a year ago and the dealer just replaced the fuel pump, not the controller. This friend pulled off early and when he hit the warmer temps of the desert, boom, dead bike.
Now I don't know if this is the smoking gun or not, but hopefully adds some more clarity to this frustrating situation. If all else fails make sure you have had the fuel pump controller replaced as well.
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Old 08-20-2010, 09:51 AM   #464
psychon2wheels
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Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Redwood City, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atcvelo
Heres were this becomes of more value. The dealer said they had just received an email from BMW USA addressing this issue with the new twins. Now this was the first time I have heard of anyone actually admitting that there is a problem. He stated and I quote "Replacing the fuel pump alone simply wont do, it is more of a problem with the fuel pump controller than anything, for some reason the electronics in the fuel pump controller are freaking out in the heat".
I'm not sure if heat was a factor in my bike stalling the other day. It was like 80 or so. But your fuel pump controller story sounds familiar. My dealer replaced the fuel pump assembly, which works like a kind of fuse, so they told me. I would assume the controller to be part of what he described as fuel pump assembly. So far I'm really happy how the bike runs now, but I haven't done more than 100 miles after the swap yet.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:01 PM   #465
cisco
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Joined: Oct 2005
Location: The city of seven wounders
Oddometer: 277
canister

Quote:
Originally Posted by atcvelo
Ok, So we all know that the 800 and 650 are having stalling issues, duh right. There have been multiple lines of evidence pointing to a fuel issue. Whether that issue is the pump, the injectors or possibly the charcoal canister. The stalling seems to manifest itself more in the heat than any other time. I might have one more piece to add to the pie.

Just got back from a two week continental divide trip with some friends on my 2009 F800gs. A little back ground, this bike has stalled twice on me, once on the way to the dealer for the 600 mi service, ironic, and once on the way back from the dealer, both times I was JRA. Both times were in Phoenix in 100+ temps. After some forum research I removed the charcoal canister hoping it was a vacuum problem. For months the bike ran fine, but I was in the cooler temps of Flagstaff. When we left for our trip I assumed the problem had fixed itself, but I still had a tiny bit of doubt buried in the back of my mind.
The bike ran great for the first few days. One day though, we had to drop out of the high country down to Espanolla, NM where the temps where in the low nineties. As we where making our way back towards the mountains, boom, total failure, the bike would restart then go about another 500m and die. We were stuck in the creepy little town of El Rico, NM.
Ok, nothing new here right. Luckily there was a dealer in Sante Fe, 60 mi to the south. I got on the phone with the dealer, and we got the bike towed to Sante Fe.
Heres were this becomes of more value. The dealer said they had just received an email from BMW USA addressing this issue with the new twins. Now this was the first time I have heard of anyone actually admitting that there is a problem. He stated and I quote "Replacing the fuel pump alone simply wont do, it is more of a problem with the fuel pump controller than anything, for some reason the electronics in the fuel pump controller are freaking out in the heat". So the parts we over nighted and the next afternoon we were on the road.
The bike ran great the rest of the trip and the true test came when we looped back trough Zion and Hurricane, UT where the temps were in the upper 90's. The bike sat in the sun at lunch in 95 degrees. No problems, road another 5 hrs on and off again through the desert in 85-95 degrees, worked great, haven't had any problems since.
On a interesting side note, a friend who was on the trip as well, also riding a 2009 f800gs had his fuel pump already replaced when it stalled in Tuscon, but this was over a year ago and the dealer just replaced the fuel pump, not the controller. This friend pulled off early and when he hit the warmer temps of the desert, boom, dead bike.
Now I don't know if this is the smoking gun or not, but hopefully adds some more clarity to this frustrating situation. If all else fails make sure you have had the fuel pump controller replaced as well.
You forgot to mention that the dealer wouldn't do the warranty work with the canister off the bike.
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