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Old 07-02-2011, 08:28 AM   #556
bross
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I just find it odd that BMW and Ducati (swelling tanks) are having so much trouble with ethanol while it doesn't seem any other manufacturers are. We've been running ethanol here in Canada for probably 20 years now, not all stations and it's only in the last few years that I've seen more stations use E10 but still, it's something that's been on the market for awhile.
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Old 07-17-2011, 04:18 PM   #557
Gangplank
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ECU Update Gate

So was there an update to the ECU for a 2009 model?

Mine hasn't been back to the dealer since 1 week after I bought it for the 600 mi service. I could call the dealer and check but... well... that's like calling an ex girlfriend to see if how she's doing without you stopping by now and then to fix the sink if you catch my drift.
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Old 07-17-2011, 07:38 PM   #558
JRWooden
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Gangplank:

I believe there have been several new versions of firmware issued since you got your bike.

I wish I could tell you whether the new version would be "better" for us or not, but details are hard to find...

Joel mentioned that the latest version adjusted the fuel-cut on deceleration, beyond that I don't know...
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:38 PM   #559
whitham_wannabe
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Man, this is a long and detailed thread, but I get the feeling this is the same issue I am suffering from. Can someone tell me if these symptoms sound the same.

Running home on the freeway last night after an all day offroading class (nothing but slow, 1st gear all day), we got into traffic and the bike started cutting out intermittently, usually on deceleration. Within 5 or 6 seconds it would fire back up and run for a couple of minutes before the same happened again. Once the traffic cleared, the cut outs became less frequent, but still present. 64 degrees, so not hot by any means.

This isn't the first time this has happened on the bike, but I got no joy from the dealership when I described the symptoms for them. They couldn't recreate the effects and of course, now I am out of warranty.

Cheers!
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:10 PM   #560
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitham_wannabe View Post
Man, this is a long and detailed thread, but I get the feeling this is the same issue I am suffering from. Can someone tell me if these symptoms sound the same.

Running home on the freeway last night after an all day offroading class (nothing but slow, 1st gear all day), we got into traffic and the bike started cutting out intermittently, usually on deceleration. Within 5 or 6 seconds it would fire back up and run for a couple of minutes before the same happened again. Once the traffic cleared, the cut outs became less frequent, but still present. 64 degrees, so not hot by any means.

This isn't the first time this has happened on the bike, but I got no joy from the dealership when I described the symptoms for them. They couldn't recreate the effects and of course, now I am out of warranty.

Cheers!
I'd hope the dealership made sure you had the latest firmware update?
If it were me I'd run down to the auto parts store and buy a bottle of Techron Fuel System Cleaner (not the fuel INJECTOR cleaner) use 4 oz per tankful for next several tanks and see if it gets better. I'd probably also put several ounces of ISO-HEET (red bottle) in the first tank or two of fuel to make sure there was no water in the system.

After that ... mmmmmmmmmmm it gets harder...
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:45 PM   #561
Singletrack_mind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitham_wannabe View Post
Man, this is a long and detailed thread, but I get the feeling this is the same issue I am suffering from. Can someone tell me if these symptoms sound the same.

Running home on the freeway last night after an all day offroading class (nothing but slow, 1st gear all day), we got into traffic and the bike started cutting out intermittently, usually on deceleration. Within 5 or 6 seconds it would fire back up and run for a couple of minutes before the same happened again. Once the traffic cleared, the cut outs became less frequent, but still present. 64 degrees, so not hot by any means.

This isn't the first time this has happened on the bike, but I got no joy from the dealership when I described the symptoms for them. They couldn't recreate the effects and of course, now I am out of warranty.

Cheers!


Your symptoms are somewhat different from mine in that you are able to run the bike for much longer periods of time before it dies each time, and then also your bike dies on deceleration (closed or closing throttle); mine just quit after a few moments of running no matter if I had it pegged or was just idling.

So, I am suspecting you don't have my same problem or set of problems. (although you might). One thing comes to mind: closing the throttle causes a spike in the vacuum pressure in the intake tract; if there was either water or fuel in the carbon canister, this would be the moment it would be sucked into the intake. That could cause a stall.

Things to think about: did you ride through streams and puddles in your off-road class? Has your carbon canister vent line been "T'd" to provide a higher outlet under the seat? Or, if it's not water, did you over fill the tank, tip over a lot, or notice unusual pressure in the fuel tank?

Was it hard to re-start each time?

It is possible that you do have fuel pump or pressure regulator failure, and it's just manifesting a little differently than on my particular bike. The first time it happened to me, the symptoms did clear up the next day after I had trailered the bike home, and I was unable to get it to act up for the dealer, so it can be a situation that comes and goes for some period of time before becoming complete failure.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:40 AM   #562
JRWooden
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If you open the fuel tank lid do you get a whoose of air IN to the tank?
(hold a piece of paper up to the tank as you open it and watch which way it deflects ... sometimes it's hard to tell if it is releasing pressure or if it's really a vacuum). If it's a vacuum that's bad ... canister problems like STM said.

As test you can try closing tank lid with the "straw" from a can of WD-40 in the way which will (if you are careful) let you vent the tank without living the lid unlatched ... see if life gets good.

What I'm posting here below is some wisdom from Joel that might actually also be posted earlier in this thread, but I'm not going to read all 40 pages of it again to see Here goes:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bike knocks off while riding


Lacking trouble codes and diagnostic equipment, it's hard to narrow down and may well be something else all together.

If I were you I'd be doing my best to get the bike seen by a dealer, at the least to tell me what codes posted, when, and telemetrics of what the bike was doing at the time.

Baring that, did the tach instantly drop to zero or fall with engine revs? Any other lights or indications when this happened?

Was the fuel line still charged?
Would the bike restart without turning the key off then back on?


But as I said, I'd be looking hard to get into a dealer.



~~

There is only 1mm difference between where the pump draws if you tear the strainer completely off, that is often it with cars, especially volvo's, but cant be the problem here.

3 possibilities in order of likelihood.

1: the pump is quitting when it gets hot. The pump is cooled by immersion in fuel, when fuel is low, the pump gets quite hot. If the pump intermittently goes open circuit, no fault codes will be posted. This requires some diagnostic skill and equipment to diagnose for certain, not a lot but more then most motorcycle dealers posses.

2: your bike is running out of gas.

3: some unusual failure is causing this problem.

Assuming no fault codes are being posted... #1 is highly likely. To prove to the warranties dept, your dealership needs either a nice recording digital ociliscope and some powers of description, or 2 multimeters and enough political clout to ram the diagnosis down warranties throat.

Either way, you need to simultaneously read the voltage output of the fuel sensor, and the voltage supplied to the fuel pump.

If, as is likely, voltage at sensor goes low (indicating low fuel pressure), and voltage to the fuel pump simultaneously goes high, the pump is going open circuit.

If pump voltage goes low as sensor voltage goes low, the fuel pump controller, DME, or wiring is bad, unless the bike is posting a fuel pump fuse code, in which case the pump is shorting, but any shop should be able to find the last.

If pump voltage goes low as sensor voltage remains high, either the pressure sensor is bad, OR the problem has nothing to do with fuel delivery at all. An actual low tech pressure gauge is required to rule in or out the last, or you can hook a fancy pressure transducer to one of the scope channels.

Speaking of scopes. The one that auto shipped to all BMW dealers in the usa as our parts accounts were debited 3 grand, it's a worthless piece of shit and will be no help in diagnosing problems. This is for multiple reasons, the largest of which is that the Mbox scope can not tolerate high ambient temperatures and will shut down on a warm day long before an ambient high temperature induced problem duplicates.

Go to a shop that spent another 3 grand for a good scope, has 2 multimeters and political clout, or diagnose it yourself and pester the dealer until they fix what's broken, most likely the fuel pump.


~~

What are your symptoms? If your bike stalls when it's warm out and the problem gets worse when the fuel level is below half a tank AND you MUST turn the key off, then back on before the bike will restart, Then it is almost certain the $500 dollar fuel pump is bad.

If everything above is the same EXCEPT you can restart the bike WITHOUT cycling the key on and off but rather just hit the start button and it restarts, then the problem is likely the $130 fuel pump controller but may just as likely be the fuel pressure sensor and may even be a half dozen other components.

What are your symptoms?

You don't need the special tool and torque wrench, a hammer and large flat blade screwdriver will remove the nut just fine, however, mark the nut so when you hammer it back on you get it the same tightness of you could crack the fuel tank.

Resetting the adaption just speeds everything normalizing. Even when the system has adapted to totally screwed up parts, it will readapt to good parts on it's own, it just may take a tank or two of fuel before it fully does.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #563
casperghst42
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Same issue here, mid 2010 model, around 14.500km, got it 2 months ago 2nd owner.

On my way to Morocco, it started suddenly after filing up 30 odd km. before Burgos in Spain, started fine again, and I continued, then at the peage it died again, I got it started, then during overtaking a truck it died (not fun at all). Made it into Burgos, but at that point it would only run for approx. 10 seconds.

This was Sunday, got it picked up monday morning and it went to the local BMW Dealer who only have one bike mechanic who is on vacation until tomorrow thursday. BMW Service decided to ship the bike back home (Netherlands), I got home tonight, and time will tell when the bike arrives.

But same symptom, run at +5000rpm (ish, sounds like it's running on one cylinder), below 4.500 it cuts out. When I then switch off/on I can start it again. I can hear the fuel pump during pre flight check, but it does not run for as long as "normal", and sounds weird.

Needless to say, BMW will pay for this ... silly expensive to transfer the bike back from Spain, and the cost for me is more than 1.600 euro. Would have cheeper for them to have fittet a decent pice of equipment on the bike in the first place


Casper
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #564
kentrider
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I am having the same stalling prob,em with a 2009 f650 gs twin. Took the bike from Oh to Bobs BMw im Md 2 weeks ago. Bobs Tested the bike and found nothing . Since then put on 500 miles locally. All ok. Then I was out riding today. 85 degrees. About 60 miles into the ride the stalling started. first as I came to a stop. And then when rolling. Could restart without using the key. Stalled 5 to 6 times in 30 miles at various intervals. Getting desperate. Hate to dump a good bike. Any suggestions

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Old 05-20-2012, 04:23 PM   #565
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kentrider View Post
I am having the same stalling prob,em with a 2009 f650 gs twin. Took the bike from Oh to Bobs BMw im Md 2 weeks ago. Bobs Tested the bike and found nothing . Since then put on 500 miles locally. All ok. Then I was out riding today. 85 degrees. About 60 miles into the ride the stalling started. first as I came to a stop. And then when rolling. Could restart without using the key. Stalled 5 to 6 times in 30 miles at various intervals. Getting desperate. Hate to dump a good bike. Any suggestions
When it stalls, stop... hold a strip of paper near the gas tank lid and open it ... see if the paper deflects out (venting pressure) or deflects in (relieving vacuum). If vacuum is being relived, you likely have a problem with your charcoal
canister/tank vent system. To confirm this ... get a "straw" from a can of WD-40 or simlar and close the tank lid on it... this will allow the tank to vent without you having to leave the tank lid unlatched.... see if problem is resolved..........
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:30 PM   #566
motoman59
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This sounds like clogged injectors or a problem injector. You should be running Techron or similar injector cleaner every few tanks. Seems like the fuel they claim is good is sub standard. I run every other tank with Star Tron fuel conditioner. 3000 so far and no problems. If the bike is still under warranty, a defective injector would be replaced.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:40 PM   #567
Teflon2
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I had the same issue. Dealer replaced the fuel pump 2 years ago and it's never happened again.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:04 AM   #568
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kentrider View Post
I am having the same stalling prob,em with a 2009 f650 gs twin. Took the bike from Oh to Bobs BMw im Md 2 weeks ago. Bobs Tested the bike and found nothing . Since then put on 500 miles locally. All ok. Then I was out riding today. 85 degrees. About 60 miles into the ride the stalling started. first as I came to a stop. And then when rolling. Could restart without using the key. Stalled 5 to 6 times in 30 miles at various intervals. Getting desperate. Hate to dump a good bike. Any suggestions
There are a couple of things that can cause those exact symptoms and NOT throw a check engine code.

1: Fuel pump (if it were jamming which is the more common issue you would bet a code and have to cycle the key to get it to restart, but if the brushes are failing or the impeller is spinning on the shaft you won't get a code)

2: Fuel pressure sensor

3: Fuel pump controller (it only gives a code when it knows its breaking and it usually doesn't)

4: ECM or in BMW speak DME

5: Tank vacuum issue from a blockage in the vent system (not that uncommon but this is far more likely to be a problem when its cold out then when its hot)

6: crank position sensor or in BMW speak position sensor


It won't be a fuel injector, coil, Idle control valve or either temperature sensor as their symptoms are way different. Fuel injectors for instance create a failure to start all the time and 1 injector might fail while running but both at the same time which is what it takes to stall while riding, is a coincidence I have never seen.

items 1 through 4 all respond to fuel tank temperature, so the symptoms usually begin well into a long ride and usually only when it is very warm out. The symptoms will happen earlier if the fuel level is lower but if ridden long enough will happen on a full tank as well.

I have personally found and fixed bikes with all 6 of the issues listed above and each customer described symptoms about like yours.

Very few dealers have the technical knowledge and diagnostic equipment to do other then guess when the issue is this intermittent :( BUT, it can be found and fixed right the first time by a few techs in BMW's dealer network.

I usually had to resort to hanging 2 multimeters with min/max/avg functions engaged, a dual trace recording 0-scope, a fuel pressure gauge, and a noid light to trace the problem with certainty in a reasonable period time.

BMW dealers do have a factory provided scope, but its a piece of junk that has to be used in an air conditioned environment or it shuts down every 5 minutes because the scope itself overheats In any case, few dealerships in BMW's network has techs that know how to use that scope that won't work when it is hot.

I believe Denver BMW still has a tech that can find these sorts of problems on the first try but its worth checking first as they did seem to have some employee turn over. n There are a couple of dealers in California that can find these problems on the first try as well.

I can find these problems on the first try, but I work for a Piaggio group dealer now and your bike might feel odd in the compony of Aprilia race bikes, Moto Guzzi's and Vespa scooters

If you want to shoot from the hip, I listed the issues in the order of how frequently they are the cause of your symptoms, but it could still be any one of them or even something I have yet to see.


Good luck and sorry you have to deal with this.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:05 PM   #569
casperghst42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casperghst42 View Post
Same issue here, mid 2010 model, around 14.500km, got it 2 months ago 2nd owner.

On my way to Morocco, it started suddenly after filing up 30 odd km. before Burgos in Spain, started fine again, and I continued, then at the peage it died again, I got it started, then during overtaking a truck it died (not fun at all). Made it into Burgos, but at that point it would only run for approx. 10 seconds.

This was Sunday, got it picked up monday morning and it went to the local BMW Dealer who only have one bike mechanic who is on vacation until tomorrow thursday. BMW Service decided to ship the bike back home (Netherlands), I got home tonight, and time will tell when the bike arrives.

But same symptom, run at +5000rpm (ish, sounds like it's running on one cylinder), below 4.500 it cuts out. When I then switch off/on I can start it again. I can hear the fuel pump during pre flight check, but it does not run for as long as "normal", and sounds weird.

Needless to say, BMW will pay for this ... silly expensive to transfer the bike back from Spain, and the cost for me is more than 1.600 euro. Would have cheeper for them to have fittet a decent pice of equipment on the bike in the first place


Casper
I finally got the bike back today ... when the bike arrived at the dealer on friday it had the problem (only ran for 10 seconds), the problem was gone yesterday when they started working on it.

But they took out the fuel pump, and they noticed that it had a squeaking noise which is shouldn't have, so they changed the fuel pump.

Picked up the bike today, and it runs great - now I just hope it continues to do so.


Casper

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Old 05-23-2012, 06:09 PM   #570
Manventure
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I have been following this thread with interest but thinking it wouldn't pertain to me. A couple days ago after a multi-day offroad Adventure Camp my bike started to hesitate or lag on the freeway when running between 65 and 70. It did this a few times but at first I seemed to be able to control it by not going over 65. About 15 miles later it totally died but I was able to just clutch in and restart it - this proceeded to happen several times over the course of a couple miles at which point I got it pulled off the freeway. It would run normally under light acceleration but any significant use of throttle resulted in a dead bike which I could restart on the roll everytime.

I made it to a gas station, thinking maybe my fuel indicator was just off and I topped off the tank which took about 2.6 gallons of gas. From that point forward it ran fine the remainder of the way to my house without any hesitation or cutting out.

My other thought was that since it had pissed rain on the bike for 2 days straight that maybe I had picked up some water and that the addition of 2.6 more gallons of high octane fuel had diluted the potential water accumulation enough that it was no longer an issue.

Should I begin my trouble shooting by putting in some Heet and some Techron System Cleaner assuming that it is water and/or injector issues and then run the tank down again and see if the issue resurfaces?
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