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Old 05-23-2012, 10:38 PM   #571
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manventure View Post
I have been following this thread with interest but thinking it wouldn't pertain to me. A couple days ago after a multi-day offroad Adventure Camp my bike started to hesitate or lag on the freeway when running between 65 and 70. It did this a few times but at first I seemed to be able to control it by not going over 65. About 15 miles later it totally died but I was able to just clutch in and restart it - this proceeded to happen several times over the course of a couple miles at which point I got it pulled off the freeway. It would run normally under light acceleration but any significant use of throttle resulted in a dead bike which I could restart on the roll everytime.

I made it to a gas station, thinking maybe my fuel indicator was just off and I topped off the tank which took about 2.6 gallons of gas. From that point forward it ran fine the remainder of the way to my house without any hesitation or cutting out.

My other thought was that since it had pissed rain on the bike for 2 days straight that maybe I had picked up some water and that the addition of 2.6 more gallons of high octane fuel had diluted the potential water accumulation enough that it was no longer an issue.

Should I begin my trouble shooting by putting in some Heet and some Techron System Cleaner assuming that it is water and/or injector issues and then run the tank down again and see if the issue resurfaces?
Lets think about this like a diagnostician, especially you JR :)

Water makes the fuel less volatile and a little harder to ignite, but mainly when there is enough in alcoholagenated fuel, it falls out of solution and since heavier, sinks to the bottom of the tank. there are a couple of water traps in the tank (low spots well away from the fuel pump pickup) so initially you don't perceive any symptoms, though the water that is in solution with the alcohol in the fuel will merrily corrode the fuel pump and damage the fuel injectors.

Once you have enough water out of solution it overflows the water traps, initially only when accelerating rapidly (the traps are in the forward portion of the tank, but once enough water is in there, all the time.

So...... lets look at the progression of water contamination.

Stage 1: up to 0.4 gallons of water in solution with 4 gallons of 10% ethanol fuel. Bike becomes a little harder to start especially when cold. Slight decrease in power but only measurable by fancy equipment, way too small to be perceived by rider. (if interested, this is because water expands 12,000 times when heated beyond boiling, so while a chunk of what is being injected into the combustion chamber no longer combusts, it still expands).

In additions, water will do wonders for cleaning carbon from the combustion chamber, valves, and catalyst. FYI injecting water in a metered fashion to the intake manifold is a valid way to clean carbon deposits and improve engine function. A key word is "METERED", don't try this unless you know what you are doing as you will likely hydrolock the engine and blow it up!

Finally, the water mixed with alcohol corrodes the hell out of the fuel pump, especially being that BMY did not even lift it's pinky finger to protect the pump from this eventuality which is costing USA motorcycle owners tens of thousands of dollars and tarnishing it's reputation for quality and reliability.

Stage 2: Over 0.4 gallons of water in the fuel but less then 0.7 gallons of water in the fuel. This will cause some water to fall out of solution but will not overflow the water traps. Since the traps are forward, during rapid acceleration water will slop out of the traps during acceleration or hill climbs and the degree of acceleration or angle of hill required to cause such becomes progressively less as more water enters the fuel.

The symptoms will start by just causing occasional light misfire whenever water is jostled out of the traps, but once the traps are full of water heavy acceleration will cause the pump to gulp water. Since the F800 is a dead end fuel system (single line), once water gets to the injectors you will have to crank till the battery is almost dead to clear it and during this time the engine won't even sputter.

Since the symptoms begin under rapid acceleration, you will notice it initially only in first gear and as more water enters the tank in successive gears though the F800 is to powerless to ever have symptoms in 6th gear acceleration until theres just a tun of water in the system.

Stage 3: over .7 gallons of water in the fuel. The bike will only run when it is pointed steeply up or down hill. It won't run at all no matter how long you crank when the bike is level.


Now, does this sound like what is happening with your bike? Not even slightly from what I took away from your post.


P.S. If your buying your gas from any gas station other then the few dozen left in the USA that don't add ethanol to fuel in about a 10% ratio, you already have 10% gas drier in your fuel and adding more won't help

The red fuel drier is a nicer way of getting water out of your fuel then the 10% ethanol already added to fuel in the USA, but no more effective.

I can not even begin to fathom how one would get more then 0.4 gallons of water in a single tank and that is the quantity of fuel each tank will pass without noticeable symptoms. Perhaps with the gas cap open and a garden hose stuffed down it? Did you do that LOL :)


See my previous post, you are having one of those problems and adding chemicals will not fix it though Techron concentrate may temporarily improve matters.


Most likely your fuel pump is failing, not because this is a common problem over all, but because it is common with the BMW rotax twin bikes as the fuel pump sucks at sucking gasoline reliably.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:09 AM   #572
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Lets think about this like a diagnostician, especially you JR :)


The red fuel drier is a nicer way of getting water out of your fuel then the 10% ethanol already added to fuel in the USA, but no more effective.....

Most likely your fuel pump is failing, not because this is a common problem over all, but because it is common with the BMW rotax twin bikes as the fuel pump sucks at sucking gasoline reliably.
You're right I wasn't thinking like a diagnostician last night I was mixing internet and my bad...


I did do a little experiment a while back with the red-heet (isopropyl alcohol)...
Started with (IIRC) 100cc of gasoline with ethanol added 10cc of water shook and got phase separation at about the 20cc mark ... as expected ... the ethanol preferring the water joined the dark side leaving the gasoline behind. I then added 10cc (or maybe 20cc) of red-heet and was able to make it all back to a single-phase.

I keep forgetting there's no return line ... old-school me ... fuel pumps ... . damit ...
I still say we go to St. Louis BMW break-in and steal your desk, I'll be they haven't cleaned it out yet, then we'd have the P/N for a "real" fuel pump eh?
I am a bit depressed about all this crap... this is not the BMW I learned about on my daddy's knee

PS: on a slightly different topic ... did you get to look much at the F800R before you left?
I got a quick look at one the other day and could not find the charcoal canister................

JRWooden screwed with this post 05-24-2012 at 05:21 AM
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:43 AM   #573
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I didn't read the complete thread... but I experienced the same fault that the creator of the thread has described. While I was riding with about 1/3 tank the engine stalled. At that time I was riding alone (my partners where ahead) on a lonely road.

No warning lights or error messages were I tried to start it again and again but finally I got it... I drove a few kilometers and the same happened again... I repeated this "procedure" a couple of times.... I decided to open the fuel tank cap and I heard the "pssssssss" sound (vaccum). So I feel calm that the problem was with the tank's vent...

When I reached a good place to stop I remove the breather's pipe and it was clogged... the problem was on the check valve that got stuck. I removed it and continued my trip, leaving only the pipe. When I Arrived at home, with some compressed air I fix the problem and it never happened again

I don't why it happened... during that trip I've been riding at high altitudes (about 5000 mts) and I had a couple of falls

I'll go back to read the entire thread...
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:39 AM   #574
JRWooden
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Cross posting this from another fuel pump thread....

This pump might be a generic replacement.... look familiar to anyone? I have not see one without the plastic shell on it........


Opel Tigra Vectra B Zafira 99-05 FUEL PUMP OPEL 815037

Opels are no longer imported into the USA, I couldn't find the pump at several of the chain stores, but it's on my favorite shopping site:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opel-Tigra-V...c1c876&vxp=mtr



JRWooden screwed with this post 05-24-2012 at 10:49 AM
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:26 PM   #575
casperghst42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Cross posting this from another fuel pump thread....



Opels are no longer imported into the USA, I couldn't find the pump at several of the chain stores, but it's on my favorite shopping site:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opel-Tigra-V...c1c876&vxp=mtr


[/FONT][/B]
As someone have mentioned that BMW is using a Bosh pump, this might look like it: http://www.teilehaber.de/kraftstoffp...d17581763.html - not cheap, but cheaper than an OEM.


Casper
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #576
JRWooden
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OK..... my bike is a hypochondriac

OK..... my bike is a hypochondriac

I'm 600 miles into a 2000 mile trip and when my fuel level gets down to 3 bars or so, the bike starts running (intermittently) like it has a small sock stuck in the air intake. No stalling, but hesitation and lag....
top up the tank and it goes back to normal ....

Perhaps my bike has the "hot fuel pump" problem or perhaps I should not carry my laptop in the top case so that the BMS-K can not talk my laptop???

Joel:
I just need to know how do defeat the embedded GPS in the BMS-K that starts f*cking with the bike's mind (and mine) once my distance from home exceeds 500 miles ............
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:56 PM   #577
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After 2 weeks of not acting up, finally caught it on video to take to the dealer.
'09 BMW F800GS Stalling
On a 2 hour ride with the 10 yr old boy and coming down out of the mountains, it stalled twice (at least not through a highway intersection this time, like 2 weeks ago with the boy). 2 more times coming around corners and once at a stop sign. Got home and rubber banded the iPhone onto the bike and went out to catch it. BOUT FREAKIN TIME!!
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:08 AM   #578
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That is exactly what happened to my 09 during hot conditions. Dealer replaced the throttle position sensor but I think they didn't get to the root of the problem and my next trip in hot weather will be a disaster. Still thinking what I am going to do, might try to somehow add hot fuel in the tank to get the issue to replicate and film for the dealer.

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Old 06-10-2012, 11:10 AM   #579
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Mine has done it in hot (this last week when filmed at 89) and cooler also (mid 60's).
It stalling with me on, does not bother ME so much. It's when I have my 10 yr old son with me and it stalls, after a stoplight and crossing a highway, with a truck bearing down on us at 40 mph from behind and couldn't tell we were not moving very fast. Restarted in time to get the hell outta the way. That bothers me
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:34 PM   #580
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacrazyrn View Post
Mine has done it in hot (this last week when filmed at 89) and cooler also (mid 60's).
It stalling with me on, does not bother ME so much. It's when I have my 10 yr old son with me and it stalls, after a stoplight and crossing a highway, with a truck bearing down on us at 40 mph from behind and couldn't tell we were not moving very fast. Restarted in time to get the hell outta the way. That bothers me
At about what time-mark in the video does the stalling happen?
I notice the tank seemed to be full at the time?
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:58 PM   #581
PatoM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacrazyrn View Post
After 2 weeks of not acting up, finally caught it on video to take to the dealer.
'09 BMW F800GS Stalling
On a 2 hour ride with the 10 yr old boy and coming down out of the mountains, it stalled twice (at least not through a highway intersection this time, like 2 weeks ago with the boy). 2 more times coming around corners and once at a stop sign. Got home and rubber banded the iPhone onto the bike and went out to catch it. BOUT FREAKIN TIME!!
Check what I wrote before. It's seems to be exactly the same failure that happened to mine.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:08 AM   #582
nickgindy
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I had the same problem at low milage too. I run premium in city and off road and only throw 87 in it for highway jaunts where i know im burning through tank. Solved the problem. The gas in the us is shit and the bmw fuel injectors are built for good gas.
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:55 AM   #583
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I had the same problem at low milage too. I run premium in city and off road and only throw 87 in it for highway jaunts where i know im burning through tank. Solved the problem. The gas in the us is shit and the bmw fuel injectors are built for good gas.
Do you have the F658GS or the F800GS?

I never thought about the "premium" being BETTER fuel ... just higher octane.
Do refiners actually take more care in the production of premium fuel?
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:22 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Do you have the F658GS or the F800GS?

I never thought about the "premium" being BETTER fuel ... just higher octane.
Do refiners actually take more care in the production of premium fuel?
Its the f658gs. I don't know the processes of the refiners, I just feel using the higher octane clears up the stalling issue. It was a method some one else mentioned using on f800riders and seemed to work for a few ot others.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:24 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Do you have the F658GS or the F800GS?

I never thought about the "premium" being BETTER fuel ... just higher octane.
Do refiners actually take more care in the production of premium fuel?
Fir my BMW I use shell or chevron. For the Toyota it's whatever cheapest... Big difference in the way mine runs.

For my old BMW X5 it was chevron mid grade or if I went anywhere else super. Otherwise it would run shitty. For the F800GS I use chev or shel mid grade always. If I can't then I run the super from whatever I can and add some techron later or with it.
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