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Old 04-09-2012, 12:56 PM   #811
Erndog
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Me too...

Funny, I was just working on this problem yesterday. I had posted to the XR forum and got no responses so I'll repost here....

OK, so the question is: If you can run both outputs together on a RS stator, you can do the same with a BD stator right?


I don't think the stator wiring or high beam indicator are quite right yet but here's what I've got planned more or less (not including the CDI circuit and kill switch):


K&S 12-0055 switch cluster, RS 250W reg/rec, BD 2X125W stator rewind, X2 dual sport Halogen headlight (70W?), DRC rear LED flashers D45-58-617, DRC LED license light D45-39-410, DRC LED inner taillight kit D45-DTL-9110 and hopefully soon HDB handguards with mirrors and blinkers.....

I'm thinking 14AWG for the main power and grounds and 16AWG for the binkers, horn, taillights and others that split off of them should be good? Grip warmers, Gerbings and anything else will be on their own circuit from the fusebox.....

Erndog screwed with this post 04-09-2012 at 01:03 PM
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #812
Kevlar49
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Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
Kevlar, nice job esp for MS Paint.

Only issue I see is it looks like the battery is on all the time

Procycle sells a dual circuit key switch that's pretty nice, grounds the kill wire in the off pos and opens the battery circuit, no more secure then the hidden kill but it performs both functions. For an HID application I'd probably use the key circuit it to fire a mini relay since I'm not sure what it's rated at and the HIDs initial surge current is up there.

Do you have a link to that VR/Reg? I got a rewire job going on right now (non XR) and it's a 300W that I want to run all DC.
Yes, the battery is 'on' all the time. But, there's nothing that it would be powering when the bike isn't in use.

Items running off the battery: Headlight, Turn Signals, Rear Running Light, Rear Brake Light, and TrailTech.

The handlebar switch has an 'off' position for the headlight; the turn signals don't draw power unless they're left on; the brake light is only on with the brake engaged (should -always- function, even with 'power' off); and the Trail Tech draws negligible power. The rear running light runs off of the headlight circuit (wiring diagram shows it wired to low - now that I think about it, I need to edit my diagram so that the high-beam circuit powers it as well, with a diode in-line to keep the low and high beam circuits isolated).

So, adding a key switch wouldn't gain me much, other than maybe shutting my signals or headlight off should I forget them, and then as you mention, I may have to add a relay (though if I did add one, I would merely run the headlight high/low circuit through it, not the main power to the HID ballast - that's fine being always connected).

This is the same reg/rect. I used (I purchased it from another store but can't seem to remember where exactly):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-Trium...#ht_500wt_1180
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:47 PM   #813
Rider Eh!
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Hi All,

I'm having a problem converting my system to DC. I wound my stock stator to a single wind of 200W and was running AC off the stock honda Reg with no problems. Now I'm trying to run DC with a SPI regulator (similar to Trail Tech/BD) and the issue is even my brake light dims as soon as I use something like blinkers. I'm running two 22,000 uF capacitors. Any advice? Will caps work or must I use a battery?
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:40 PM   #814
Kevlar49
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Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
Kevlar, nice job esp for MS Paint.

Only issue I see is it looks like the battery is on all the time

Procycle sells a dual circuit key switch that's pretty nice, grounds the kill wire in the off pos and opens the battery circuit, no more secure then the hidden kill but it performs both functions. For an HID application I'd probably use the key circuit it to fire a mini relay since I'm not sure what it's rated at and the HIDs initial surge current is up there.

Do you have a link to that VR/Reg? I got a rewire job going on right now (non XR) and it's a 300W that I want to run all DC.
Y'know, after giving this a little more thought... While I -personally- don't think I need a key switch (I trust my ability to turn off my headlight and turn signals), there's a certain appeal to redundant kill-switches, and the last thing I need is an inconsiderate passer-by to turn on my headlight while I'm away and kill/ruin my battery! Sooo... I ordered that ignition switch and updated my wiring diagram

Here it is:

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Old 04-09-2012, 10:04 PM   #815
RideFreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevlar49 View Post
Y'know, after giving this a little more thought... While I -personally- don't think I need a key switch (I trust my ability to turn off my headlight and turn signals), there's a certain appeal to redundant kill-switches, and the last thing I need is an inconsiderate passer-by to turn on my headlight while I'm away and kill/ruin my battery! Sooo... I ordered that ignition switch and updated my wiring diagram

Here it is:

Kevlar, Were you able to determine the key switch rating? I tried but could come up with any info on it.

Is that a BD HL handlebar switch? If so you might want to run the HL on a relay, I've replaced one (BD) for a guy that became a little deformed inside due to heat caused by the HL draw. I don't know if it's an issue with the HID, their inrush current can runs between 5.5 ~ 6A depending on the bulb brand and color temp but it drops down to about 3.5A fairly quick. They (HID) claim 35W (3A) but that's a little optimistic on their part, more like 42W.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:37 PM   #816
Kevlar49
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Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
Kevlar, Were you able to determine the key switch rating? I tried but could come up with any info on it.

Is that a BD HL handlebar switch? If so you might want to run the HL on a relay, I've replaced one (BD) for a guy that became a little deformed inside due to heat caused by the HL draw. I don't know if it's an issue with the HID, their inrush current can runs between 5.5 ~ 6A depending on the bulb brand and color temp but it drops down to about 3.5A fairly quick. They (HID) claim 35W (3A) but that's a little optimistic on their part, more like 42W.
I called ProCycle to find that out, and while I wasn't able to get a spec, the guy there told me that they use that switch on all kinds of bikes (dual sport, sportbikes, etc), and they run the headlights/accessory lights and so forth through the switch without issue. I'm not too concerned - I'll only have the turn signal, rear running light, and headlight 'signal' going through it.

Technically it's the K&S 12-0055CN, but as far as I can tell, that's the switchgear BD uses.

With the HID, the ballast/light itself draws power through independent power/ground leads (the two lead going to the top of the High/Low HID in my wiring diagram). The high/low output from the handlebar switch is merely used as a signal to trigger the HID, and then to trigger the activation of the high/low mechanism. So there will be negligible current draw through the handlebar switch itself.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:27 AM   #817
RideFreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevlar49 View Post
I called ProCycle to find that out, and while I wasn't able to get a spec, the guy there told me that they use that switch on all kinds of bikes (dual sport, sportbikes, etc), and they run the headlights/accessory lights and so forth through the switch without issue. I'm not too concerned - I'll only have the turn signal, rear running light, and headlight 'signal' going through it.

Technically it's the K&S 12-0055CN, but as far as I can tell, that's the switchgear BD uses.

With the HID, the ballast/light itself draws power through independent power/ground leads (the two lead going to the top of the High/Low HID in my wiring diagram). The high/low output from the handlebar switch is merely used as a signal to trigger the HID, and then to trigger the activation of the high/low mechanism. So there will be negligible current draw through the handlebar switch itself.
Yeah it'll be fine for that use. Your setup should work nicely. I looked up the link for that VR/Rect and can't find the specs but it looks exactly like the RS VR/Rect I'm using, same case, wire color mounting points etc... which puts it at 250W, they work pretty well.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:44 AM   #818
RideFreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erndog View Post
Funny, I was just working on this problem yesterday. I had posted to the XR forum and got no responses so I'll repost here....

OK, so the question is: If you can run both outputs together on a RS stator, you can do the same with a BD stator right?


I don't think the stator wiring or high beam indicator are quite right yet but here's what I've got planned more or less (not including the CDI circuit and kill switch):


K&S 12-0055 switch cluster, RS 250W reg/rec, BD 2X125W stator rewind, X2 dual sport Halogen headlight (70W?), DRC rear LED flashers D45-58-617, DRC LED license light D45-39-410, DRC LED inner taillight kit D45-DTL-9110 and hopefully soon HDB handguards with mirrors and blinkers.....

I'm thinking 14AWG for the main power and grounds and 16AWG for the binkers, horn, taillights and others that split off of them should be good? Grip warmers, Gerbings and anything else will be on their own circuit from the fusebox.....
Yeah you can gang a BD stator, not sure of the wiring connections though, they should have a diagram of the config on their website though. 14 gauge (7.4A) would be good up to the fuse box, 16 (3.7A) for the fan, grips and high current accessories, 18 (2.3A) or 20 (1.5A) will work for the rest esp stuff like the blinkers indicators and tail light.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:11 AM   #819
RideFreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider Eh! View Post
Hi All,

I'm having a problem converting my system to DC. I wound my stock stator to a single wind of 200W and was running AC off the stock honda Reg with no problems. Now I'm trying to run DC with a SPI regulator (similar to Trail Tech/BD) and the issue is even my brake light dims as soon as I use something like blinkers. I'm running two 22,000 uF capacitors. Any advice? Will caps work or must I use a battery?
What did you use to calculate the capacitance requirement? Are the caps in series or parallel and what's their voltage rating?
  • Capacitances diminish in series.
  • Capacitances add in parallel.
It seems to me I remember needing a 30V 4700uf cap to replace a 12V battery in one of our systems but that was connected to a 100W output. The SPI reg looks like it's rated at 200W, right at your max but that's probably not the issue since stator ratings are listed at max output and that's an optimistic number, it's usually a little less. For testing purposes I'd get a 12V battery, replace the cap and see how it operates to eliminate that as being an issue, it can be something as simple as a 12V cordless drill battery.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:53 AM   #820
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Curious why anyone would want to use capacitors vs a small cheap (10-15$) SLA batt or equivalent? Is it just an issue of size/weight? Seems like the sudden charge/discharge properties of caps makes them less than ideal for DS purposes. Those tiny SLA batteries seem to be extremely reliable, lasting easily for two or more years of riding, and help protect the electronics.

Gildus screwed with this post 04-10-2012 at 02:34 AM
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:29 AM   #821
Gildus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevlar49 View Post
Y'know, after giving this a little more thought... While I -personally- don't think I need a key switch (I trust my ability to turn off my headlight and turn signals), there's a certain appeal to redundant kill-switches, and the last thing I need is an inconsiderate passer-by to turn on my headlight while I'm away and kill/ruin my battery! Sooo... I ordered that ignition switch and updated my wiring diagram

Here it is:
Thx for sharing your diagram. No doubt there's a number of benefits to an all DC system, especially as you're upgrading your wire harness, One thing to consider is putting a spare high power R/R in your emergency kit, as you can only expect your original to last a year and a half average. If one fails with no backup AC circuit in place, your single point of failure brings down your entire electrical system (except for coil). Just something to consider.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:04 AM   #822
Rider Eh!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
What did you use to calculate the capacitance requirement? Are the caps in series or parallel and what's their voltage rating?
  • Capacitances diminish in series.
  • Capacitances add in parallel.
It seems to me I remember needing a 30V 4700uf cap to replace a 12V battery in one of our systems but that was connected to a 100W output. The SPI reg looks like it's rated at 200W, right at your max but that's probably not the issue since stator ratings are listed at max output and that's an optimistic number, it's usually a little less. For testing purposes I'd get a 12V battery, replace the cap and see how it operates to eliminate that as being an issue, it can be something as simple as a 12V cordless drill battery.
I used the formula Vpp=6000*I/C, solving for C in uF. This comes up with 10,000 uF if you use about 17 amps. Also I knew Trail Tech was using 27,000 uF so I guessed the two 16V 22,000 uF's I am using in parallel (44,000 uF total) would be sufficient. What I found with testing with a actually KTM bike battery last night, is with all lights/instruments/fans on the voltage dropped to 11.5 V across the battery. it would be about 12.5 with no load. When I tested voltage across the caps in parallel with only lights on, they only held 4v, with no load 12.8v. In series it was 6v but no lights would work.

I'm running a trail tech X2, led brake light, standard bulb blinkers, fan, heated grips, gps charger

Quick help is appreciated as the bike ships tomorrow to Phoenix so I can ride the Continental Divide Trail back to Calgary. I may just ship down a battery, as I think it will be the most reliable option. My next question would be what size of fuse for the battery? 15-20A?
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:31 AM   #823
Trl Rdr
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Your Cap voltage rating is too low. Try 50 volt. Your are right at the working voltage of the cap at 16 volt. The dielectric may be failing & then it may get nasty. Small voltage spikes from the stator poke holes in the dielectric (could try your caps in series, check voltage to see if it divides evenly)

I have a 50 Volt Cap the size of a beer can, works fine.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #824
RideFreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildus View Post
Curious why anyone would want to use capacitors vs a small cheap (10-15$) SLA batt or equivalent? Is it just an issue of size/weight? Seems like the sudden charge/discharge properties of caps makes them less than ideal for DS purposes. Those tiny SLA batteries seem to be extremely reliable, lasting easily for two or more years of riding, and help protect the electronics.
I'm not a fan of caps ether but I have seen them work ok, the dharge/discharge properties doesn't seem to affect the operation of electrical componets and done right it can be a simple light weight alternative. Although they can get just as bulky as a battery when properly sized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildus View Post
Thx for sharing your diagram. No doubt there's a number of benefits to an all DC system, especially as you're upgrading your wire harness, One thing to consider is putting a spare high power R/R in your emergency kit, as you can only expect your original to last a year and a half average. If one fails with no backup AC circuit in place, your single point of failure brings down your entire electrical system (except for coil). Just something to consider.
Gildus, never heard of the VR/Reg only lasting 1.5yrs, I'm on 3 with no issues. A stock system gets far more life than that, easily years. If the XRRs (new) electrical system is properly sized and designed, there's no reason the VR/Rect shouldn't last as long as a stock unit.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:44 AM   #825
RideFreak
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Originally Posted by Rider Eh! View Post
I used the formula Vpp=6000*I/C, solving for C in uF. This comes up with 10,000 uF if you use about 17 amps. Also I knew Trail Tech was using 27,000 uF so I guessed the two 16V 22,000 uF's I am using in parallel (44,000 uF total) would be sufficient. What I found with testing with a actually KTM bike battery last night, is with all lights/instruments/fans on the voltage dropped to 11.5 V across the battery. it would be about 12.5 with no load. When I tested voltage across the caps in parallel with only lights on, they only held 4v, with no load 12.8v. In series it was 6v but no lights would work.

I'm running a trail tech X2, led brake light, standard bulb blinkers, fan, heated grips, gps charger

Quick help is appreciated as the bike ships tomorrow to Phoenix so I can ride the Continental Divide Trail back to Calgary. I may just ship down a battery, as I think it will be the most reliable option. My next question would be what size of fuse for the battery? 15-20A?
I think Trl Rdr nailed it, 16V is very close to the system's working voltage, I never like to operate a componet near it's max if it can be avoided. Their rating is stated in DC and a 50% rule seems to be the accepted practice (operating voltage is 50% of the device's rating) The equiv voltage ratings will increase when you put two of 'em in parallel but I think you're still low, 30V seems like a common size.

You going to pass right by (40mi) here on the CDT, weather has been really nice, 70s in the day and 50s at night. Not sure how soon you're headed up the CDT but it's a little early for southern Colorado, don't be surprised if you're detoured cause of snow just north of Platorio in the Summitville area, I didn't know it was even passable this time of year. I'd have an alt plan for that area just in case, east through Montevista is probably the best bet in case you get turned around.
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