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Old 11-24-2009, 08:45 PM   #121
XRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river251
This is in fact what Mike at BD suggested I do if I parallel the two stator 125w circuits. How did you mount this? Is is an XR650L box? Can you take some pics of how you mounted it? Is it an L battery? I wonder if the weight is a problem to support?

thanks....
I had the same trouble getting the boys at B.D. to commit to a single output solution on thier stator. If I need a large single output stator I use the Ricky Stator 200w with one of his heavy duty regulator rectifiers. The instructions that come with the stator show you how to connect it for single output and you don't need to add a huge battery. But you do need one of his reg/rect's, the B.D. reg/rect will not handle the power.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:05 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river251
This is in fact what Mike at BD suggested I do if I parallel the two stator 125w circuits. How did you mount this? Is is an XR650L box? Can you take some pics of how you mounted it? Is it an L battery? I wonder if the weight is a problem to support?

thanks....
I made the battery box myself. The battery is the same as the 450. I used the factory bolt locations on the subframe and added a support that was attached to the top rail of the subframe.

Joe racer sells a plastic box that mounts in the same location. I hate to recommend the guy after he hung up on me, but it might help you guys out.

-John
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:40 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azcagiva
I made the battery box myself. The battery is the same as the 450. I used the factory bolt locations on the subframe and added a support that was attached to the top rail of the subframe.

Joe racer sells a plastic box that mounts in the same location. I hate to recommend the guy after he hung up on me, but it might help you guys out.

-John
Thanks John. When I call Joe I'll hang up on him for ya. Just kidding.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:27 PM   #124
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:27 PM   #125
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I'm working on a DS wiring harness setup for my piggy, I had a fast made prototype I built last summer that worked well but after putting on bar risers and Raptor bars, some of the wires were a bit on the tight side so I figured it was time to redo it through the winter and make it bullet proof.

My Idea is to stick with the dual output set up so systems can be easily isolated and not interfere with each other. Headlight and taillight/ brake light will be on one system running AC. The DC system will run cooling fan, Acewell computer, turn signals and horn and will have an accessory jack (probably BMW style). DC side will also have a small battery pack, there will be a battery tender harness on this also.

I am thinking of building a few of these harnesses and also building a universal harness for other dirt bikes. I am sourcing plugs to try and make this as plug and play as possible, all wire colors will be color coodinated per system and all terminal ends will be factory style bullet connectors.

So the question I have for the other piggy riders is do you think I am missing anything in my harness as far as accessory outlets go, or is there anything you would like to see in a harness? I will be trying to keep my price below $250 for a first rate harness.

Feel free to throw your ideas my way.
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:49 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrtrippin
I'm working on a DS wiring harness setup for my piggy, I had a fast made prototype I built last summer that worked well but after putting on bar risers and Raptor bars, some of the wires were a bit on the tight side so I figured it was time to redo it through the winter and make it bullet proof.

My Idea is to stick with the dual output set up so systems can be easily isolated and not interfere with each other. Headlight and taillight/ brake light will be on one system running AC. The DC system will run cooling fan, Acewell computer, turn signals and horn and will have an accessory jack (probably BMW style). DC side will also have a small battery pack, there will be a battery tender harness on this also.

I am thinking of building a few of these harnesses and also building a universal harness for other dirt bikes. I am sourcing plugs to try and make this as plug and play as possible, all wire colors will be color coodinated per system and all terminal ends will be factory style bullet connectors.

So the question I have for the other piggy riders is do you think I am missing anything in my harness as far as accessory outlets go, or is there anything you would like to see in a harness? I will be trying to keep my price below $250 for a first rate harness.

Feel free to throw your ideas my way.
I would be very interested in a color coded harness. I bought my bike already farkled out and there seems to be only two colors of wire, red & black and some of them are connected together! I am in the decoding process now and was actually thinking about trying to do this myself. I figure no need to reinvent the wheel if you are already headed down this path.
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Old 01-03-2010, 01:57 PM   #127
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Finally Figured it out!!!

I went to an all DC system a while back & had issues trying to keep up with a 70w HID light setup. Since all the components were new, I assumed I had done someting wrong. Turns out the RS rectifier/regulator (old style finned) was bad from the start. It just would not pass enough current. After verifying both legs of the BD stator & combining them as instructed I was able to run two 85W lights on AC without issue, so the problem had to be the rectifier/regulator. Ricky Stator sent me a new one free of charge & now I have plenty of power to run the headlight & the grip heaters

You can combine the BD outputs, you just have to verify that you combine them with the highest AC voltage output. I'm very happy with the setup I have now.
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Old 01-03-2010, 03:44 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
All stators output AC. DC regulators contain circuitry to convert the AC to DC. DC regulators require some sort of energy storage device to work properly. This can be either a battery or a capacitor. Trailtech.net sells both.
So the power to the coil does not need a capacitor or battery, but the power to the ligths, etc does?

Thanks, great thread.
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:21 PM   #129
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Track, the coil acts as a capacitor.

Odd, Hoping to have the first batch of harnesses ready by the end of the month, I'm waiting for the bullet connectors to arrive and still working out the details for a small power block with a relay to activate it so it won't burn out switches. As I said I only want to run top quality components in this so if it takes me a little longer to get it right so be it. I'll keep you updated on this thread for how progress is going.
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:05 PM   #130
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Might requrie a revisit...

me thinks capacitor is defined by its capacity to store energy, a coil has no such capability. A coil can be used enhance (step up or down but that is another story) the level of voltage--at the expense of current flow--which is what it does in an ignition system. Using a capacitor or battery tends to smooth the rectified AC to a more constant DC level--something a coil cannot accomplish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrtrippin
Track, the coil acts as a capacitor.

Odd, Hoping to have the first batch of harnesses ready by the end of the month, I'm waiting for the bullet connectors to arrive and still working out the details for a small power block with a relay to activate it so it won't burn out switches. As I said I only want to run top quality components in this so if it takes me a little longer to get it right so be it. I'll keep you updated on this thread for how progress is going.

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Old 01-04-2010, 02:43 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrtrippin
Track, the coil acts as a capacitor.

Odd, Hoping to have the first batch of harnesses ready by the end of the month, I'm waiting for the bullet connectors to arrive and still working out the details for a small power block with a relay to activate it so it won't burn out switches. As I said I only want to run top quality components in this so if it takes me a little longer to get it right so be it. I'll keep you updated on this thread for how progress is going.
The coil does not act as a capacitor. The XR stator has 2 dedicated windings to power the ignition. The power is unregulated and unrectified (AC) and goes directly to the ICM (CDI box). I can send you both XR schematics and DSK schematics if you like. Just PM me your email address.
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:50 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackhead
So the power to the coil does not need a capacitor or battery, but the power to the ligths, etc does?

Thanks, great thread.
Correct. There's a capacitor (several, actually) built into the ignition module. It's the C in CDI.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:22 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river251
I got this from the files on the yahoo group. There are a couple others.
I also suggest you call BD and ask for Mike or Diego. But it's kind of hard to get them to think beyond their standard solutions. I keep calling them back again with another question, but I think Mike told me paralleling them is done to handle big HID systems, but the downside is you have to keep your lights on or your system will be overloaded by the 200+ watts produced by the stator. I'm about to send my stator. My current plan is to have two batteries, regulators, and rectifiers, but I am still wanting to parallel the circuits somehow. I just can't quite seem to get over the hump with BD to think the system completely through so I'm comfortable. Maybe I need to find somebody else who is expert. Maybe somebody at Trail Tech. I also hear Ricky is very helpful, I think I'll call him too. And the other companies that make dual sport kits. Eventually I'll figure out the best plan.

Also, see post below about battery. Mike suggested a motorcycle battery as a sufficient sink for the paralleled circuit. I would think since we don't have a starter, a much smaller battery than the XR650L battery would work, since we don't need cranking amps, which is what makes batteries big. Please report back what you learn, maybe we can figure it out together. I will be powering a Tecate HID/Halogen BD headlight, tail/brake light, blinkers, horn, and GPS.

--------------------

Headlight Performance - XR650R - Technical Discussion



The XR alternator (and most dirt bikes for that matter) is much different than what you would see on a car or street bike. XR alternators do not have a variable electromagnetic field. Instead, they have permanent magnets built into the flywheel which means the stator puts out power in proportion to engine rpm. The power output increases as the magnets move faster past the coils. The regulator maintains a constant voltage by "burning off" the excess power over and above what is consumed by the motorcycle's electrical system. Since the alternator puts out Alternating Current or AC (that's why it's called an alternator), a rectifier is required to convert the AC to Direct Current or DC. With a dual sport kit, everything is hooked up to the rectifier since the battery, turn signals, and horn require DC. However, it is possible to power lights with AC and that's why the stock system does not comprise a rectifier. Reference this block diagram. Notice that both the rectifier and regulator draw current from the stator in parallel. Some of the alternator's current goes through the regulator and some goes through the rectifier. The amount of current that flows through the regulator is determined by the difference in power between what the motorcycle's electrical system is using and what the alternator is generating.

When rewinding a stator, one is tempted to use the approach, "I'll just wind the hell out of it so it makes all kinds of power and hook up a 1000 Watt stadium light." I'm afraid it takes quite a bit more consideration than that. First is the power output required to keep the headlight at full brightness and the battery charged. Second is the limitation on how much power the regulator can dissipate. And finally, there is the limitation on how much current the wiring and rectifier can handle. If the alternator does not put out enough power, system voltage drops off, the battery can discharge, and the headlight will never see full brightness. If the alternator puts out too much power, it will overcome the ability of the regulator to burn off the excess which will most likely fry it along with the lights. If the alternator puts out enough power, but the wiring can't handle it, the wiring will get hot, resistance will go up, and the headlight will never see full brightness because power is getting lost in the wiring. There's also the risk of electrical fire if the wiring gets too hot. A tangent consideration is the ability of the headlight lens to withstand the heat generated by a high wattage bulb.

When looking at power in general, it's proportional to the square of the voltage. Let us examine the equations V=IR and P=VI. Voltage equals current times resistance and power equals voltage times current. Solving for resistance, we find it's equal to voltage squared divided by power. Solving for power, we find it's equal to voltage squared divided by resistance. Headlamps are rated at 12 volts so plugging in the numbers, we get a resistance of 1.44 ohms for a 100 Watt bulb. Plugging the numbers into the second equation shows a 100 Watt bulb consumes around 140 Watts at 14 Volts and 70 Watts at 10 Volts. That's half the power with a difference of only 4 Volts! If we do the same calculations on a 60 Watt bulb, we find it consumes around 82 Watts at 14 Volts. That means a 60 Watt bulb, at full brightness, will emit over 10 more Watts of energy than a 100 Watt bulb at 10 Volts. The voltage of 14 is where full brightness is obtained because that is the voltage the regulator maintains. System voltage has to be a couple volts higher than that of the battery (12 Volts) to keep it fully charged. The point is that it's necessary to maintain 14 volts on the headlamp to utilize it's full potential. Running a lamp that has a rating too high for the output of the stator will result in a lower system voltage and possibly, a less powerful headlight.

There's a couple little things I need to address here to satisfy questions brought to mind no doubt by those more versed in electrical theory. The actual (or usable) power delivered at the stator is somewhat less than the simple voltage times current calculation for a DC circuit. For a purely resistive AC circuit, real power can be found by multiplying peak voltage and current with the "root mean square" commonly known as RMS power. The "root mean square" is found through vector mathematics too involved for this discussion, but it has to do with the fact that no power is being delivered when the voltage passes through zero going from one peak to the next. The result is a factor of about 70%. After the stator output is rectified, the voltage is not perfectly smooth so you can't really treat it as pure DC either, but the difference is less due to the presence of the battery which smoothes the output quite a bit. However, the rectifier creates a drop of about 1 volt so the regulated voltage is actually about 15 peak at the stator helping to cancel out the difference with respect to the DC side of the rectifier. There are also reactive power losses in the stator due to the inductive nature of any wire coil. Headlamp resistances are not purely linear either. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming direct current calculations and linear resistances since none of these factors are so significant as to invalidate any conclusions. Attempting to fully account for these characteristics would make the discussion overly complex anyway. In general, I've found the alternator needs to rate around double that of the headlight to get it up to full brightness just above engine idle.

Ok, so how do I figure out how to rewind my stator for the headlight I want to run? Alright, first you have to consider the power rating. The standard halogen bulb available at any auto parts store is a 60/55 Watt. Using the equations from before, a 60 Watt bulb at 14 Volts draws almost 6 amps. The wiring used in the dual sport kits (and the stock system) is 20 gauge so that hits the current limit there. Also, there are no published current capacity specs for the rectifier part of the Tympanium rectifier/regulator that ships with most DSK's. From experience, I can tell you it's about the same as the 20 gauge wiring. Running a headlight greater than 60 Watts means a new headlight circuit with heavier gauge wiring that bypasses the rectifier by running directly off the stator. We also lose the luxury of being able to shut off the headlight. I'm sure you understand why. Properly powering a 100 Watt headlight requires at least a 200 Watt alternator. Since the regulator part of the rectifier/regulator overloads at about 150 Watts, the headlight must be on at all times to off-load the regulator and keep currents within tolerance. However, this limitation can be eliminated by use of a heavy duty rectifier/regulator which can handle the full brunt of a high power alternator. So with that in mind, do I want to go through the gyrations required to run a high wattage headlight? Well, at 14 Volts, a 60 Watt bulb burns about 82 Watts and a 100 Watt bulb burns about 140 Watts. That's quite a big difference in power, but to the naked eye, will that make a difference? I've read opinions both ways. However, using a dual lens, each with a 60/55W bulb, will double the light output and make a very noticeable difference. Using two Philips VisionPlus 60/55W bulbs (mentioned in the General topic of this section) would result in a very powerful system, equivalent in light output to that of an HID. Another consideration is the inability of most lens to withstand the intense heat generated by a 100 Watt bulb. Nasty things can happen like melted plastic and cracked glass. I found the problem with the Baja Designs lens is the surface of the plastic reflector gets too hot and melts causing it to cloud up and lose its reflective capacity. Other all-glass lenses may work better, but may suffer cracking especially if hit by water. If a lens can be employed capable of withstanding the heat, then going high power is a more attractive option. Going with a dual lens system would be ideal. Now, there are lots of different high wattage dual beam bulbs available, but a limitation with the standard rectifier/regulator is that the high and low beam wattage's must both be close to 100W to keep the load on the regulator within tolerance. Runing a 100/55W would put a standard regulator in an overload condition with the low beam on. It's probably best to go with a 100/90W or 100/80W. They are the most common of the high wattage bulbs anyway. There are 130/90W bulbs available, but that would definitely generate too much heat for the lens.

Ok, I've decided between the standard and high wattage setup. How do I figure out what gauge of wire to use and how many turns and how many poles to wind? Well, a good place to start is the stock configuration. It uses 20 gauge wire with 4 poles at 75 turns per pole for a total of 300 turns. Since the open circuit voltage (voltage with nothing attached) is dependant on the number of turns, I think it's a good idea to stay close to that magic number since Honda has already done a lot of engineering we don't have the facilities to duplicate. Paul Gortmaker wrote a program that calculates coil resistance for a bunch of configurations and posted the results. Using Paul's utility, we find the stock coils have a resistance of about 0.6 Ohms. The utility was not available when I did my experimenting so I measured the coils with a precision Volt/Ohm meter instead. I've found results to be consistent. Setting up a ratio for the stock coil resistance versus the headlight resistance of a 35 Watt bulb (4 Ohms) we get a value of 0.15 to use as a baseline. So if we plug in 2.4 ohms for a 60W bulb, we want to see a coil resistance of about .36 Ohms. Using the utility and the 300 total turns magic number (plus a little for good measure), we can see that winding 8 poles with 18 gauge at 40 turns per pole results in a resistance really close to that. Conveniently, this configuration results in 4 even layers on each pole which is necessary for a clean wind. Using 10 poles at 32 turns per pole would make the wind messy and problematic. If we plug in 1.44 ohms for a 100 Watt bulb, we want to see a resistance of about 0.22 ohms. Winding 10 poles with 16 gauge wire at 32 turns per pole gets us real close to that.

River....

Verrry impressive writeup. You appear to be a EE as well as researching this particular issue. As a retired aerospace engr (ME), I am impressed.

I am in Salt Lake and part of a local XR650R group. One of our members is in the middle of adding a 200 w RS stator / 100 w headlight and is very confused.

See...http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...6#post11803426

So, I am curious where you are on this ?

Thankz
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:37 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harcus
River....

Verrry impressive writeup. You appear to be a EE as well as researching this particular issue. As a retired aerospace engr (ME), I am impressed.

I am in Salt Lake and part of a local XR650R group. One of our members is in the middle of adding a 200 w RS stator / 100 w headlight and is very confused.

See...http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...6#post11803426

So, I am curious where you are on this ?

Thankz
Hi Harcus, yes, the person who wrote that is smart but it's not me. I just copied those from web sites, found with google.

Glad it was a help to somebody.

Where I'm at is I decided to let BD do the stator, one output at 200w, all DC. It will power my lights, heaters. I am making a mount for an XR650L battery over the motor. Since there is no electric start I don't need that much, and may get something smaller in lead acid, but I like the idea of the reserve juice keeping the lighting strong at low rpms, or even in the event of a dead engine at 80 mph (which has happened on my road bikes). I'm using a BD Tecate HID/halogen headlight, about 70w total. So should be plenty of juice. Haven't gotten around to taking the stator off and sending it to them yet, will soon.

If I had it to do again, I would get the Ricky 200 watt stator, reg/rect, and an 8" halogen.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:37 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harcus
River....

Verrry impressive writeup. You appear to be a EE as well as researching this particular issue. As a retired aerospace engr (ME), I am impressed.

I am in Salt Lake and part of a local XR650R group. One of our members is in the middle of adding a 200 w RS stator / 100 w headlight and is very confused.

See...http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...6#post11803426

So, I am curious where you are on this ?

Thankz
Harcus, I took a brief look at that thread. While I am not an EE, I did talk to every dual kit manufacturer quite a bit, and a lot of online stuff, so if you ask a specific question maybe I can answer.
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