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Old 01-09-2009, 03:12 PM   #16
tahoeacr
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O.K. Here's what you need to know. Fuel pressure is 3.5 bar(51.45 psi). As the voltage changes on the fuel pump so does the pressure. As pressure changes, so does flow. A pump flowing say 30 litres at 50 psi does not flow 60 litres at 100psi. As pressure goes up, flow rate goes down. Flow rates change and your air/fuel ratio changes. The ECU has no clue if your pressure changes. This is the reason for a pressure regulator. All FI systems have them. Current train of design is the fuel pump module(in tank) has the pressure regulator built in. This is known as a "dead head system". Only one fuel line is then required to head up to the engine. With aftermarket set-ups, you need to plan that the return line does not come back in where the pick up is. The fuel pump will be stronger than stock. You can have enough pressure from the return line to blow the fuel away from the pick up under high g-loads and low fuel. This doesn't happen with fuel tank modules cause the pick up is in a seperate cause inside the module. It's designed to stay full. The return will be in the outer case.
I'll pull my tanks off tonight and see if I can come up with any helpful suggestions. I'm thinking to mount it with the crossover tube in the front bottom being the draw. Get more usuable fuel that way. Return could go in and regulator be mounted where the stock pump was. That way you have one fuel line coming up the left side to the regulator. Return go right in the tank and not have another line running around. Stock line go right to the regulator at the stock pump location. Keeps the new fuel line short=less$$.
An adjustable pressure regulator would probably be a good thing for all these 990's running around with crappy fuel milage.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:27 PM   #17
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Now we are talking!
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #18
tahoeacr
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Possible candidates for FPR. Both under $70.00

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...053+4294880914


http://store.summitracing.com/partde...053+4294880914+
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Old 01-10-2009, 01:25 AM   #19
gefr
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Is it possible to cannibalise the OEM FP to take its FPR?

If it is easy, could be worth it to get the OEM fuel pressure regulator with OEM pressure output with $0 expense. Is this a KLR approach? Cheers.
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Old 01-10-2009, 11:16 AM   #20
Head2Wind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoeacr
O.K. Here's what you need to know. Fuel pressure is 3.5 bar(51.45 psi). As the voltage changes on the fuel pump so does the pressure. As pressure changes, so does flow. A pump flowing say 30 litres at 50 psi does not flow 60 litres at 100psi. As pressure goes up, flow rate goes down. Flow rates change and your air/fuel ratio changes. The ECU has no clue if your pressure changes. This is the reason for a pressure regulator. All FI systems have them. Current train of design is the fuel pump module(in tank) has the pressure regulator built in. This is known as a "dead head system". Only one fuel line is then required to head up to the engine. With aftermarket set-ups, you need to plan that the return line does not come back in where the pick up is. The fuel pump will be stronger than stock. You can have enough pressure from the return line to blow the fuel away from the pick up under high g-loads and low fuel. This doesn't happen with fuel tank modules cause the pick up is in a seperate cause inside the module. It's designed to stay full. The return will be in the outer case.
I'll pull my tanks off tonight and see if I can come up with any helpful suggestions. I'm thinking to mount it with the crossover tube in the front bottom being the draw. Get more usuable fuel that way. Return could go in and regulator be mounted where the stock pump was. That way you have one fuel line coming up the left side to the regulator. Return go right in the tank and not have another line running around. Stock line go right to the regulator at the stock pump location. Keeps the new fuel line short=less$$.
An adjustable pressure regulator would probably be a good thing for all these 990's running around with crappy fuel milage.
Hey Tahoeacr Thanks for the details! I suspected that the fuel pressure was being dynamically altered by the ECU via PWM. I like the idea of putting/mounting the FPR directly to the adapter plate (if there is room). that way the fuel comes from the x-over, through the pump up to the fuel rails then down to the return point on the left fuel cell. although with unit pictured (that normally attaches to the end of the fuel rail) it would need to have some sort of attachment/fixture/fitting to allow it to be attached to a hose coming from the fuel rails.

I know that my neighbor's twin turbo Mitz 3000 gt has a ECU modulated fuel pump, plus a bunch of other crap. My Subie turbo fuel pump system is fixed voltage with a 1:1 FPR.

I guess that we would not need to have any vacuum/manifold signal to the FPR and let the ECU control the FP as per the stock setup.....
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:58 PM   #21
LukasM
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Did you guys make any progress on this?

I am looking for an external fuel pump that I can attach to a normal tank petcock for another project. Need about 45psi, so I would use an adjustable regulator as well. Ideally I would like to avoid a return line, can a setup like this be run in dead head configuration?
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:32 AM   #22
Gimme 2
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this'll be tops if you guy's get it sweet.
my pump stuffed up at 1900 ks,
The power decreased slowly while having to crank throttle more.

then i turned off the ignition,

then on again, must have re booted the ecu/ fi or something and she was good to go for another 20 mins until i had to do it all again.

Did this all the way home 650 klms ,turn off then on whilst on the fly.

got new pump installed when i got home and havent ridden bike a great deal cause in Western Aus, im in NSW.

i hope this info can shed some light on the issue,

Cheers
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:57 PM   #23
azcagiva
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CA cycle works sells a 3.5 bar fuel pump $149.00.


http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/ca...ml#fuel%20tank

From the looks of it you might be able to mount it in the same place as the 950 pump. It also looks like you can attach a hose to the pick up end allowing it to be mounted outside the tank.


They also sell a vacuum mikuni pump for you carb guys that want an alternative to the beloved facet.
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azcagiva screwed with this post 05-06-2009 at 04:43 PM
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:43 PM   #24
azkiwi
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Call me an optimist, but why do you think it necessary?

There do not seem to have been many 990 pump failures (even fewer outside warranty). Every vehicle out there in the market has a fuel pump and very few of them die prematurely. Why should it be a continuing challenge for KTM?


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Old 05-04-2009, 06:48 PM   #25
Autostream
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is it the "internet magnification factor" ?

How many actual failures have there been?
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:16 PM   #26
tumbler45
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Mine is failing at 30,000 miles. Same story as listed above, it started with the engine losing power and sometimes stalling when the fuel level was low, but only under hard braking or acceleration (I still havn't figured out why ). Then one day I had just filled up and the bike felt like it wasn't running quite right. Did a few hard accerations and as soon as I put a hard load on the motor it just fell on its face. It idled fine, reved fine, just faltered under hard power. As I rode it got worse and worse. 45 minuites later I could hardly keep up with traffic.

I wanted to confirm the fuel pump was the problem so I T'eed in a $20 NAPA gauge (similar to the KTM tool) before dropping $400 on a pump assembly. Put the bike back together and of course it ran perfectly. The problem with stalling under braking or acceleration also went away .

I ran 4000 miles without a problem ( ) removed the fuel gauge and still had no clue what caused the problem. 1000 miles later the problem resurfaced and worse than before. It was intermittent, but seemed to be affected by the heat of the fuel. When I let the bike cool or added fuel it would run much better.

I have a fuel pump assembly on the way, I'll probalby pull the pump out of the old assembly and carry it as an emergency backup.
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:24 PM   #27
azkiwi
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What have you seen in the fuel filter?
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:25 PM   #28
sp4ce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azkiwi
What have you seen in the fuel filter?
Yep. Check and replace the filters before you drop $$$ on the pump.

I had all the symptoms reported in this thread - bogging at speed when throttle applied, intermittent poor running, turning the bike off and back on temporarily fixing the problem - and it was dirty filters. I replaced them and the bike was fine.

I sure would be interested in an external pump solution. Not so much for the pump, but for the ability to run an external filter that doesn't cost $120.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:56 PM   #29
Autostream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sp4ce
Yep. Check and replace the filters before you drop $$$ on the pump.

I had all the symptoms reported in this thread - bogging at speed when throttle applied, intermittent poor running, turning the bike off and back on temporarily fixing the problem - and it was dirty filters. I replaced them and the bike was fine.
I worked for Bosch as a technical sales rep for 7 years so have had a fair exposure to fuel pump issues.

This is starting to sound like a pump cavitation issue.
I have yet to open mine up and see how it is all set up, but from what I can tell, the pump sucks in fuel via a sock filter, pumps it through a small fine filter, builds up pressure in some internal pressure regulator with the excess bled back into the tank and the pressure fed out the single line.

If I am correct in those assumptions then....
  • The same fuel will be circulated around the fuel pump in a very small volume as the tank empties out.
  • The tank is plastic so does not get rid of heat well.
  • The rather small main pressure filter will tend to block up quite easy, requiring more effort to pump fuel through, this will tend to increase the fuel pump power effort and hence heat generated.
  • Warm fuel being sucked through a partially pick up blocked filter will tend to cause the pump to cavitate, create vapor locks and generally conspire to stop the pump being able to create the pressure needed to run the bike. (EFI pumps are useless at sucking, great at blowing)
  • As the fuel temp increases the problem gets worse until engine stops altogether.
For those that have had the problem, does the 'tone' of the pump sound at all like it is sucking air when things start to go kaput?

Does this sound like it fits the symptoms?
Add fuel or let it cool and all is fine.
Cold ambient temps and all is fine.
Hot ambient temps and it all happens faster.
Traffic, where radiator heat is soaked into fuel tank, all is worse.
Freeways, more airflow throught radiator so less absorbed into tank, runs better.


Get the idea?
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:52 AM   #30
tumbler45
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First thing I did was pull off the filters and check them out. They were brown, but did not seem to be clogged. I could blow through them will no resistance (for whatever that is worth). I have also had the problem happen on a 50 degree day within 15 miles of filling up.

Rather than spend $115 on a filter set and $60 on the orings (which is crazy!) I am going to buy a complete pump assembly and have a back up pump to carry.
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