Waterpump Mod/help/fix

[Knackers]

Originally Posted by Krust

So, I decided to throw it on the optical comparator.

The what now?

[camoktm]

Originally Posted by Krust

Just a little additional information on the shaft. I just replaced mine this weekend so I thought I would do some research. This is the result of the "updated" shaft and seal design from a 2007 990 with 15,000 miles. The seal was still working perfectly fine, but we are going to Mexico for 2 weeks, so I thought I would replace it as preventive maintenance.



First thing you notice is the typical wear "scuffing" on the surface of the shaft, but it doesn't appear to be as severe as the pictures I have seen in the past. So, I decided to throw it on the optical comparator.



At 100x Magnification the surface looks like extremely flat except for 2 areas at the inner and outer edges of the seal. One of these can be seen above. There is no measurable wear except at the edges of the "scuffed" area. The wear at the inner seal edge measured at .0004 in. and the outer seal at .00075 in. The rest of the surface looked great.

Since you all were interested I put in on the Hardness tester and got an average of Rockwell C 46.5. Add in the correction factor for a 1/2" cylinder yieds a value of Rockwell C 48. The hardness did not noticably vary on the "wear" portion of the shaft vs. the rest of the surface.

After spending a few hours doing the replacement this weekend I would definitely be interested in an alternate solution to have to do this less often/never.

gold mate

[Dert Gerl]

Originally Posted by Tha Rick

Check out your used seal, compared to a new seal-does tha coolant side show more wear compared to tha oil side? Oil side will tend to lubricate.

Whaddya think?

Based on the measurements that I took on my shaft with 15,000 miles the wear on the oil side was definitely less than the wear on the coolant side.

[cpmodem]

Definately wears more on the coolant side.


Thats the side where the casting sand is:

[950TRANSALP]

Auto parts stores have waterpump lubs for about three bucks . Anyone tryed that ?
Have you used your cryogenic w.p. shaft yet ?

[ridewestKTM]

Originally Posted by Wreckluse

Could the shaft be nikasil coated? I have a friend who re-builds bike and sled cylinders - does all the work in house, including the plating. I can ask if he can plate shafts, although they may have to be turned down, plated, then ground to the original diameter. He is only set up to diamond hone the bores.

Wreck

I think nikasil has a bit of tooth - seal will go away.

I tried to get some help from a local company "Nanosteel" they have a treatment that's glass like but they ignored me. Someone was going to try TiN - did that happen?

[cjracer]

Originally Posted by Tha Rick

Does making/fabricating a redigned water pump with a new setup for a weep hole, a shaft made out of 17-4 ph(or another alloy suitable) hardened Stainless, with a different seal system which separates oil and coolant, make sense?

Keeping water out of the oil sounds like a safer design on any system.

Would there be a market for this? Looking at my bike, I think a repair for coolant pump seal failure could be done without the need of removing fuel tank, exhaust, etc, as the coolant pump is exposed.

I don't think I could get to the pump w/o removing this stuff, If it can be done I'd like to see a report w/ pictures.

I've got the chance to try something new now, if it doesn't work. I'll chalk it up as a failed experiment, giggle, and try something else. As for the market I'm not sure, but I don't plan to get a new bike for along time. Nothing else fits or interests me. Only one way to find out. Time to try something.

Maybe there is also problem with tha pump impeller not distributing tha force correctly? You'll notice that on tha shaft there is a fairly large section of polished area, meaning that tha shaft/seal has moved during operation.

Check out your used seal, compared to a new seal-does tha coolant side show more wear compared to tha oil side? Oil side will tend to lubricate.

Not much oil gets through the two sealed bearings to the oil side of the seal, I think it's grit from the cooling system that causes most wear on the coolant side. Look at CP's pics of all the grunge in the earlier systems. My 06' looked much better.

Whaddya think?

I just picked 17-4 stainless, b/c I work w/ it often in Aerospace stuff, and I can get it. Won't rust, machinable and I can get a good surface finish w/o grinding. I made a shaft for my wife's 99 F650 BMW. It has about 10,000 miles on it and still going strong. I've not pulled it apart for an update check, but it's not leaking yet. Similar setup to the LC8.

I should have material middle of this week, maybe I can get started on the spacer plate w/in a week once I source bearings and seals, and finalize the shaft design.

[erider]

Hey CJ -

I just picked 17-4 stainless,

17-4 stainless is soft - and will not provide the required hardness for the seal journal. The waterpump seal is a thermo-plastic rubber compound and, unless the 17-4 is 'Malcomized' (case hardening process for stainless) the seal will abrade the shaft quickly.

Better alternative would be D2 - and then thru-hardened to Rc 54-56. D2 contains 10-11% nominal chrome and will provide good corrosive attribute.

[cjracer]

Originally Posted by erider

Hey CJ -

I just picked 17-4 stainless,

17-4 stainless is soft - and will not provide the required hardness for the seal journal. The waterpump seal is a thermo-plastic rubber compound and, unless the 17-4 is 'Malcomized' (case hardening process for stainless) the seal will abrade the shaft quickly.

Better alternative would be D2 - and then thru-hardened to Rc 54-56. D2 contains 10-11% nominal chrome and will provide good corrosive attribute.

It would be thru-hardened, ~60Rc, sorry I didn't add that info. So ya, I'd have to grind it after. I guess it's too early yet for this much thinking.

Lot of work left to do yet.

[pburke]

what about cryo-treating the shaft?

Problem about cryo is that it has to be done in batches to keep it economical, but it definitely would add some extra strength to whatever metal you choose. Send your kichen knifes and brake rotors along to make it worth the effort, I guess

[amaunu]

To make Spacerplate and waterpassage holes sealed there might be a solution to use 2 separate o-rings instead of one paperseal. There is only four bolts keeping installation together, i assume that proper thicknes o-ring give much reliable sealing effect because against rising pressure due to nature of of the ring sealment. (damn this is difficult to put in english).

Paperseal requires much more even pressure betveen holding points and there are only four bolts in wp cover.

This what i think but i might be completely wrong, I am no pro in this matter.

Nice addition to your machined products Cj, would be clutch slavecylinder piston made out duraluminum etc. just my little wishes.

[cjracer]

Originally Posted by amaunu

To make Spacerplate and waterpassage holes sealed there might be a solution to use 2 separate o-rings instead of one paperseal. There is only four bolts keeping installation together, i assume that proper thicknes o-ring give much reliable sealing effect because against rising pressure due to nature of of the ring sealment. (damn this is difficult to put in english).

Paperseal requires much more even pressure betveen holding points and there are only four bolts in wp cover.

This what i think but i might be completely wrong, I am no pro in this matter.

Nice addition to your machined products Cj, would be clutch slavecylinder piston made out duraluminum etc. just my little wishes.

I hate paper seals. I use o-rings for sealing when needed and so will this.

[cjracer]

No turning back now.


Ready to make some chips.


Before:


After:

[cjracer]

Cut an adaptor plate this weekend. It's a bit thicker than I hoped for, but it holds a double sealed bearing and "2" oil seals for 2X the sealing surface. I'm going to test fit it tonight to see if it fits behind the header.

If this works next up is to make a shaft.

If this is too thick than it should work on a SE or SM 950 b/c the header is routed differantly.

Then I'll need to get some thicker stock and make a new version. I'll re cut the stock case to remove the rest of the bearing and seal area. This will be incorporated into the new adaptor plate. There is only so much stock that can be safely removed from the stock cover to thing inward.

Adaptor plate, w/ weep slot.

[adiablolex]

nice bling dood, looking forward to good results