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Old 03-08-2010, 05:31 PM   #151
GR0NK
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Firstly, I don't have a dog in this race so I'm not picking on the DRZ. My buddy had one for 8K miles and it worked good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
By itself a 5-speed vs. a 6-speed is not going to make much difference in overall acceleration.
That statement is completely false. If the speed range is sufficient (in the context of this discussion let's say 0-100 mph) a 6 speed transmission will be able to keep an arbitrary engine (you implied "by itself") in the heart of its powerband more effectively than a 5-speed. But specifically talking about the DRZ, that is one bike that desperately needs a 6 speed gearbox so there is a deficiency there.

Quote:
Likewise, assuming both bikes are properly geared (and both are),
Even ignoring the huge gap between 4-5 on a DRZ?

Quote:
gearing isn't going to play a major role, at least not if you're taking the bikes from stop to near their top speeds. Acceleration is, more or less, directly related to power to weight ratio.
Power to weight is nothing if the gearing is a compromise. I'll use a different motorized vehicle to demonstrate.
Take two identical snowmachines and properly tune the clutches on one. You can obtain both better acceleration AND a higher top speed by tuning the clutches. Power and weight remain identical, only gearing is affected. Ask any sledneck what the first mod on a sled should be, it's THAT important.

Quote:
And carburetion? Do you think two bikes that make exactly the same power, the FI bike is faster because it has fuel injection? The rear wheel can't tell how the engine got its fuel.
Are you saying that a carburetor can meter fuel more precisely than EFI? Even a perfectly tuned carburetor can be affected by factors such as temperature, altitude, humidity, engine speed and quality of fuel. An EFI system monitors these things in real-time and adjusts accordingly. The seat of your pants knows how the engine gets its fuel.

Quote:
In any event, the data doesn't bear what you saying - all the comparative data shows the DRZ is much faster in the 1/4 (about 14.5 sec vs. 15.5) and much faster on top speed (about 93 mph vs. 85). All this is completely consistent with the different power-to-weight ratios.
True but you said,
Quote:
But not with saying its just as fast on the street.
Do you use maximum acceleration at every opportunity on the street? Granted, a WRR probably cannot accelerate as quickly as a DRZ but that does not mean it would be completely inadequate in a street comparison. By the same logic my buddy's DRZ would suffer a similar crutch compared to my 525, but I know that to be incorrect as well. Sure it's not as fast, but it's not in a different time zone either.


Quote:
I've had this discussion before (perhaps in this thread). I think the WR-R is a great little bike and it has a number of distinct advantages vs. the DRZ. But some proponents here take it too far. The DRZ has 60% more displacement and 40% more power. These are not tiny differences that are made up for by a six-speed.

- Mark
I'll actually agree with you that there are some here who drink too much Kool-Aid, whatever color it might be, and perhaps they do think the WRR is some sort of mini superbike. In the context of small-bore DS bikes it is head and shoulder above what was previously available and is much closer in comparison to bikes such as the DRZ than anything else in the 250cc range. The EFI and 6-speed may not make up ALL the differences but they close the gap a fair bit.
Look at it this way. Imagine if the DRZ came fuel-injected with a 6-speed?



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Old 03-08-2010, 05:34 PM   #152
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Quote:
Are you saying that a carburetor can meter fuel more precisely than EFI? Even a perfectly tuned carburetor can be affected by factors such as temperature, altitude, humidity, engine speed and quality of fuel. An EFI system monitors these things in real-time and adjusts accordingly. The seat of your pants knows how the engine gets its fuel.
Not entirely.
The EFI in the WR isn't quite there. it has no anti-knock sensor. If it gets bad fuel, its going to knock and run bad.
I found my WR would knock / ping if i blipped the throttle rapidly.

EFI on bikes has a long way to go IMO. Carburettors are still the best.

Its not even an arguement which bike is faster. the WR250R is a slug compared. I've ridden both, extensively.
I feel like i have to "wait" for the WR to spool up and get moving when i exit corners. The DRZ400E launches with the throttle i give it.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:37 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVJake
my DRZ is an E and it is *much* faster than the WR250R.
I sold my WR250R because i couldn't deal with the lack of power. The suspension wasn't very good, either. It was nice if you weren't pushing it though.
Funny that's exactly what my DRZ buddy said after I got my 525. He now has a 450 EXC.
Quote:
You can get a DRZ really cheap, and they have potential to put out a bunch of power, and unlimited amount of parts to modify.
Yes, a real sleeper!



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Old 03-08-2010, 05:52 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVJake
Not entirely.
The EFI in the WR isn't quite there. it has no anti-knock sensor. If it gets bad fuel, its going to knock and run bad.
I found my WR would knock / ping if i blipped the throttle rapidly.

EFI on bikes has a long way to go IMO. Carburettors are still the best.

Its not even an arguement which bike is faster. the WR250R is a slug compared. I've ridden both, extensively.
I feel like i have to "wait" for the WR to spool up and get moving when i exit corners. The DRZ400E launches with the throttle i give it.
EFI is debatable. It's only keyboard tuning which is a lot simpler than going into the carb to change jets. And when you have it right, it's right at cold idle, 100% humidity at sea level or at 10 000 feet in the mountains. I like carbs too but they just don't have any advantage when it comes to performance or tunability. IMO EFI just works better everywhere.

As for the DRZ vs WRR, that wasn't my debate. I just wanted to demonstrate that gearing is a very important part of the performance equation. I know the WRR is a slug, I ride big orange bikes.




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Old 03-08-2010, 06:00 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GR0NK
Funny that's exactly what my DRZ buddy said after I got my 525. He now has a 450 EXC.

Yes, a real sleeper!



Sean
the DRZ ain't no slug. maybe the S model which is choked up for road legal reasons.

I would own an EXC but they are too "flighty". Geometry is designed for tight enduro work. The motor is high strung. Its lightweight components don't provide long term reliability. I know there are examples of 30,000+ mile motors, but these aren't common cases.
Plus, parts are mighty expensive.
I have peace of mind knowing i can buy a DRZ motor for less than $700 for the rare case she blows.
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:49 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVJake
the DRZ ain't no slug. maybe the S model which is choked up for road legal reasons.

I would own an EXC but they are too "flighty". Geometry is designed for tight enduro work. The motor is high strung. Its lightweight components don't provide long term reliability. I know there are examples of 30,000+ mile motors, but these aren't common cases.
Plus, parts are mighty expensive.
I have peace of mind knowing i can buy a DRZ motor for less than $700 for the rare case she blows.
That's an Aussie thing. Everything seems to be more expensive there.

I actually have more local KTM dealers than anything Japanese. I have two KTM, one Suzuki, one Yamaha, one half Kawasaki and NO Honda dealer. But for actual OEM parts, I shop online from Munn Racing in Texas. (I'm in Ontario Canada) As a KTMTalk lifetime member, I enjoy such a great discount that it's still cheaper for me to shop across the border, even with duties, shipping and exchange. Parts availability for KTM is a non-issue in North America.

I'll agree that KTM parts for the new XC4/RF4 engines are more expensive but KTM RFS parts are NOT expensive.(2000-2007 EXC bikes) Suzuki however! I had to price out a front shock for my dad's King Quad. Just the shock, no spring or adjuster was $350 CDN!!!

As for reliability, depends on if you race or not. If you raced your DRZ-E, you would need to accelerate your maintenance schedule too. But for DS use the DRZ and EXCs are not that far apart, the nod going to the DRZ of course. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and that's the price you pay for more performance. You can squeeze more juice from the DRZ but reliability will suffer. It's just a different balance.



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Old 03-08-2010, 07:04 PM   #157
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I've been down this road. Pondered over the same three bikes. Then it came down to the WR and DRZ. In the end, displacement won out (and I've kinda always been a Suzuki guy). I recently uncorked my DRZ with a full Muzzy exhaust, 3x3 and rejet. Completely different bike. I recon it will be a completely different bike once the FCR and big bore go in, too.

I don't regret my decision one iota. In fact, I'm thrilled with it!
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:05 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GR0NK
As for reliability, depends on if you race or not. If you raced your DRZ-E, you would need to accelerate your maintenance schedule too. But for DS use the DRZ and EXCs are not that far apart, the nod going to the DRZ of course. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and that's the price you pay for more performance. You can squeeze more juice from the DRZ but reliability will suffer. It's just a different balance.



Sean
true to a degree.
The DRZ motor is heavy & overbuilt, so it can handle hot up mods better than say the RFS without affecting reliability.
I do love the RFS motor for its torque and grunty power. Just the motor i love, similar sort of long stroke delivery as the XR650R.
But ive heard of many more crank failures and the like on the RFS.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:30 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill
A note on the WRR's height. It is the only bike out of all of these that actually comes with an adjustable rear suspension height. They are turned up out of the crate and that's why it seemed so tall on the showroom floor. A simple screw on the bottom of the shock will lower it by more than an inch, which really makes a difference. If that still isn't enough, you can drop the spring pre-load (which comes set at the half-way point) to lower the rear even more. Again . . . if that isn't enough, there is a Yamalink available that will drop it yet another inch. Don't let the tall seat height in the showroom floor turn you off.

Also, I have spent time on a DR350 and while the motor is excellent and the suspension is decent for trail riding, that thing has to be one of the most uncomfortable bikes I've ever ridden. Seriously. I was sore in less than an hour and I had to ride that contraption for half a day. I can ride the WRR ALL DAY without even a hint of fatigue or discomfort.
Amen on the height issue!

I had a DRZ and sold it. Got tired of dumping it over on uneven ground due to the height and weight combo. IMHO neither one of these little bikes are suited for the Interstate. That's what my FZ1 is for.

All things being relaitively equal nimbleness wins if your trail riding, not urban commuting or adventuring.

I wish I'd looked harder at the WR.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:47 PM   #160
GR0NK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVJake
true to a degree.
The DRZ motor is heavy & overbuilt, so it can handle hot up mods better than say the RFS without affecting reliability.
I do love the RFS motor for its torque and grunty power. Just the motor i love, similar sort of long stroke delivery as the XR650R.
But ive heard of many more crank failures and the like on the RFS.
Crank failures are big bore SMRs that are raced hard in SuMo. Crank spreads from the high RPMs (10K +RPM!!!) and then the roller mains take a dump because they can't handle that kind of load. Factory fix is to use ball bearing mains which resist the crank spreading. Not as many cranks failing in non-racing applications. Yeah it's a "race oriented" motor but it's just so versatile. You've already mentioned the ones that run a long time in a DS bike, and you can find many examples of those here at ADVRider and KTMTalk, but most people don't realize how much potential these engines have in full race guise. See for yourself.



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Old 03-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #161
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Gronk: More gearchanges maskes more time when you'øre not accelerating. The same with gearing, one bike geared really low maya ctually take longer to reach a given speed, because you run the gears out so fast.

I tested my upgraded xt600e vs a buddys. His had 16/42 gearing, mine had 14/47, stock is 15/45. He reached 100km/t before me, cause i "lost speed" in the extra gearchange i needed to make to reach 100. I know theese bikes have more torque and such, but i think the comparison can still be transferred to other bikes/examples.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:07 PM   #162
GR0NK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JensEskildsen
Gronk: More gearchanges maskes more time when you'øre not accelerating. The same with gearing, one bike geared really low maya ctually take longer to reach a given speed, because you run the gears out so fast.
Well if we talking about trucks with three foot long shifters I can see you losing time between shifts but on a bike that's a moot point. Even a casual shift (non racing) takes a split second.

Quote:
I tested my upgraded xt600e vs a buddys. His had 16/42 gearing, mine had 14/47, stock is 15/45. He reached 100km/t before me, cause i "lost speed" in the extra gearchange i needed to make to reach 100. I know theese bikes have more torque and such, but i think the comparison can still be transferred to other bikes/examples.
So two identical bikes except for gearing? It proves the point I'm trying to make. Do not underestimate gearing.
Looking at the numbers, you should have left in 2nd.



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Old 03-09-2010, 08:56 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GR0NK
Well if we talking about trucks with three foot long shifters I can see you losing time between shifts but on a bike that's a moot point. Even a casual shift (non racing) takes a split second.



So two identical bikes except for gearing? It proves the point I'm trying to make. Do not underestimate gearing.
Looking at the numbers, you should have left in 2nd.



Sean
I'm a Sumo Race rider using 640's on the long track and I can say..
16 45 0.35555555555555555555555555555556
will out run
16 46 0.3478260869565217391304347826087
all day...

and I can say that I'm not a lethargic shifter either ...

more shifts higher lap times and that's a fact...



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Old 03-09-2010, 10:10 PM   #164
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most people rejet/adjust carbs to get them optimal.
same thing is needed on the wrr w/ a fuel programmer to get them optimal.
it comes leans from the factory. you can't complain until you've optimized the fuel delivery on any setup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVJake
Not entirely.
The EFI in the WR isn't quite there. it has no anti-knock sensor. If it gets bad fuel, its going to knock and run bad.
I found my WR would knock / ping if i blipped the throttle rapidly.

EFI on bikes has a long way to go IMO. Carburettors are still the best.

Its not even an arguement which bike is faster. the WR250R is a slug compared. I've ridden both, extensively.
I feel like i have to "wait" for the WR to spool up and get moving when i exit corners. The DRZ400E launches with the throttle i give it.
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Old 03-16-2010, 12:21 PM   #165
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Drz Wr

Best friend owns a 08 wr r ... i own a 08 DRZ

suspension quality of the suspension components, suzuki (just ask John Curea MX-Tech) Better set up out of the box, Yami. They both are pretty similiar in they are not the greatest unmodified.

Carb/FI Carb of suz is good, simple,easy, tried and trued. FI adjusts by itself but needs fine tuned with a programmer if Piped which equals $$. If you have a problem with the FI unit or programmer, figure on spending some money. There is a reason why so many racers still use carbs, so i don't see there being a distinct advantage here.

Engine Suz 33-35 hp 23-25 pounds of torque Yami 23-25 hp and around 13-15 pounds of torque. When comparing the wieght which is only around 15-18 pounds difference, the power and torque of the DRZ stands out, especially in the long, rocky hill climbs. The WR shines in the tigher single track.

Aftermarket- DRZ gets the nod here, much cheaper to modify and gain HP out of a DRZ than it is a WR. WR makes more effiecient power, but at the cost of a relatively new bike with a smaller aftermarket which usually equates to less of a selection and more $$.

Price I got my DRZ for $1400 cheaper and we bought the bikes at the same time.

I would not trade my DRZ in for a WR in any situation. I have got accustom to it's incredible torque and ability to tractor it's way throught the poopiest of conditions. I'm sure my friend would never trade his WR for a DRZ. We grew with our bikes and learned to love them. Sometimes you just have to adjust to the bike, instead of adjusting the bike to yourself. There is no perfect bike out there, but the DRZ and WR are both equally kick A$$ bikes that you will not go wrong on.
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