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Old 04-20-2009, 12:12 PM   #61
smithy1
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Finally, a report of the bike actually moving under it's own power !

I had to go to the file photo to look at your brake line problem. Looks like there never was a lower clamp holding it to the forks . Stagehand was a little too anxious to rider her!


Suspension tuning will probably be a life-long project on this bike! Are the spring rates at least in the ball park on each end? Ever get any idea of the rear suspension travel distance? I am going to guess that the front has around 10+".


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Old 04-20-2009, 12:45 PM   #62
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The jacking is probably a result of the suspension being so far off. It's like hitting a bump in the opposite direction and your bike is probably way undersprung/underdamped for it.

Anybody could tell you that Ohlin's has adjustable damping and can fix that but Ohlin's X 2 would cost a fortune. Forget about just using up the kid's college fund--you'd have to sell the kid too.

Maybe the jacking effect is greater at the degree you're running the rear swingarm? I wouldn't begin to know where you'd find info like that out.

Smithy sounds like he's speaking from experience when he says suspension tuning will be a life-long project. I did a simple fork swap and it feels like that--you've done a lot more.

Good job, though. Can't wait to see pics. And you can forget the wheelie pics--I want photoshopped pictures of you jumping a house on this thing
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:00 PM   #63
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J's expression hearing that thing fire....

My expression letting out the clutch!
The rear end moved 6" up before the front tire started moving!
...but a growling, mudslingin' beasty when it did!!!!
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:35 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danedg
...The rear end moved 6" up before the front tire started moving! ...
I am thinking that the problem may originate from the extreme angle of the swing arm compared to the angle of the engine.


compare that to the 1980 ISDT bike. Notice that the swingarm and engine are essentially aligned in the same plane:





I was actually heading down to the shop after dinner to do some cutting/welding/modifying of my project's frame. Now I have some deep thinking to do about the rear suspension geometry...
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:22 PM   #65
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Thanks for all your continuing support, smithy. We are gonna have Some Fun! Agreed, the current geometry is the reason for the lifting... Same thing happens to the monolevers, its just not quite as pronounced, I think. In the photo of the isdt bike above, it looks like a lengthened swingarm, and a tilted motor, both tricks would really help to alleviate the jacking. I currently seem to be in a zero sum game with suspension travel and degree of jack. Also if I came down in the back at all, it would really rake out the front. Keeping the back high will give me a steeper rake. Lengthening the rear will make the wheelbase creep up to really long length.
Well! This does get complicated! But I guess we knew that, and all the armchair rubbernecking is nothing compared to having a bike in real life to mess with. Its definitely an "I will love it even if it sucks" relationship. it will be a joy to figure out. Everything is a compromise.
I think I might get used to the lift if I got the suspension sorted... One good thing I can say is that it walked over a few stone walls and other like obstacles without flinching. I didn't want to really give it any gas, but I think a little power and a little front wheel loft and it will climb trees. Seriously, it walked over a few trees and rocks, and I was really surprised at what it soaked up. It takes constant terrain well, like going up a steambed... But crossing a thick log kinds funny. I definitely need to ride it more to find out wtf, and I for sure need a fork brace. What's the stock XR250 fork specs?
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:32 PM   #66
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Pics soon, my friend. And also as soon as I get a real computer again and off this 2 square inch screen I'm going to revisit those suspension links you provided a while ago. We'll get this sucker nailed. Entirely off topic, I once did a show at a venue in Athens, back when I lived in GA. I can't remember the place's name... It wasn't a real theater since we had to run cables through a drop ceiling or something... It was like a courthouse, museum, VFW place or solething like that. Town was cool, it reminded me of New Paltz, here. Same quisny college town thing. Excellent scenery during the school year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoodsoil
The jacking is probably a result of the suspension being so far off. It's like hitting a bump in the opposite direction and your bike is probably way undersprung/underdamped for it.

Anybody could tell you that Ohlin's has adjustable damping and can fix that but Ohlin's X 2 would cost a fortune. Forget about just using up the kid's college fund--you'd have to sell the kid too.

Maybe the jacking effect is greater at the degree you're running the rear swingarm? I wouldn't begin to know where you'd find info like that out.

Smithy sounds like he's speaking from experience when he says suspension tuning will be a life-long project. I did a simple fork swap and it feels like that--you've done a lot more.

Good job, though. Can't wait to see pics. And you can forget the wheelie pics--I want photoshopped pictures of you jumping a house on this thing
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:11 PM   #67
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...yeah...I think the angle of the swingarm is too steep...causing the swingarm to lift the frame under power...maybe shorter rear shocks?.....
It didn't really seem like a carnivorous mongoose....
more like a Big Horn sheep or some other kinda mountain goat.... Ibex maybe.....
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:56 PM   #68
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Just a thought as all the other input about the motor position and swing arm jacking but if the front springs are stock CR they are probably acting a bit like a pogo stick.

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Old 04-23-2009, 05:06 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danedg
...
more like a Big Horn sheep or some other kinda mountain goat.... Ibex maybe.....
I think I like that analogy. Might have to name my creation "the Goat".



Jason - what size rear tire is on Fossa? I tried a 120/18 dirt tire on a similliar swingarm and have major clearance issues. Does not look like the 2-sided swingarm rear can be shimmed to the left. Only option I see is to lace the rim off-center.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:52 AM   #70
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HI guys-- I got a computer back, and I got pics!

First off- snithy- the rear is a 120/90-18 Dunlop D606, and there were no clearance issues that I know of. Stock shit, back there.

Grimmy- Pogo sticking is not a bad word for it!

Dan- Ibex is kinda funny! Maybe the iBex. :gigglesnort Look at the damn long legs on that thing!

Ok- I'll try and go in order, sort of, from when I brought it home last week.

First look at the Shifter and peg welding, which I am sick of fucking talking about;





Andrew did a good job. He's very good at steel, but I think he may even be better with Aluminum.



I wanted to get some shots of my friend RoadWorrier on it:






OK, what I did next was go look at some fender and seat options:

Here is a R1150GS rear seat I threw on just for laughs, so I would know what did NOT work:




Then there was this, also as a joke: I'm sure you all recognize the fender:





Here is the stock PD dual seat. I like the way it goes up the tank. I think this seat is where I eventually want to go, but I need to re-pad and recover it, and probably re-form the rear of it entirely. Where's Bpeckm when you need him>?




Here is an old Honda CL seat that works pretty good, as well, and its the one I'm going with for now.
Seen also are those Preston Petty Mudders. They are probably what I'm going to use, as well.



From the riders view, it looks correct to me:





Sorry about this one: I'll flip it when I have more time:



Here's a KTM front, I think: It doesnt look too bad, but not the right style. I'm obviously all about style.




Here is a goofy X650 rear end I got ahold of someplace. They are known for self destructing immediately upon delivery, so I got one from my dealerfriend.




And lastly: An R60 stock rear fender:

Shit pics, and the fender isnt much better. It looks kind of cool, but its REALLY heavy for a fender, and also makes it LOOK very heavy. It is kinda cool in a retro way, though.









SO after that bit of fun, I started thinking about the exhaust, as it was the next and almost final item on the punch list.

It occurred to me that just looking at where my foot was going to reside that the exhaust output location was going to be kinda problematic. Without a bunch of goofy positioning, the hot pipe will probably rest right on my boot.
Combined with the fact that Andrew my welder friend was kind of thinking that we should just run the exhuast high to begin with, it was becoming obvious that I should be looking that direction.


So I started pulling pipes and fiddling around and this is what it looks like:


Remember- these are stock R80ST headers and collector.

It doesnt quite fit perfectly. I figure adding a little straight pipe to the header outlet at the cylinder would be easier that cutting it up in the middle.


I need to consider how this will interfere with the fender, and might have to run the pipes in from outboard of the frame, rather than up the center from the front.


ANd now that I see it in this configuration, I think to myself, "COME ON, how can it possibly NOT be in this orientation?" It looks correct. I can tell the universe is willing these pipes to go up.




I think they should join 2-into-1 and come out this hole here, in between the shock and the subframe bits:
and go out along the right or left side of the seat.

On the other hand, Andrew suggested keeping them both 1-1 and run a tube out this area on both sides, have dual exhuasts that would look like that airhead scrambler that JTwind posted a while back. Not too shabby

That would look pretty sweet.


NExt up: wiring the battery and riding the bitch.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:06 AM   #71
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Cool project!

FYI those aren't CR250 forks. If they are indeed 41mm, they are XR250R forks (1996 or newer IIRC). If they are 43mm they are probably XR400R forks (98-99 DR350's also had 43mm forks with extruded lowers, but it looks like a honda brake caliper setup so probably not the 'zukes). You may want to add something like the SRC fork brace to help limit twisting and improve steering response.

CR's never had conventional forks with extruded lowers and haven't had conventional forks of any kind since '88 and (and those were 43mm with cast lowers).

In any event, the only damper rod, extruded-lower conventional forks made (that I can think of) are the ones that come on DR650SE's (43mm) and the early DRZ400S models (49mm). So, its almost certain that they are cartridge forks.

It is also likely that they came from a bike much lighter and likely were too softly spring for that bike - stiffer springs would be really useful for your application. As a rough guess I'd think something in the .47kg-.52kg range would be about right depending on how hard you plan to ride it. You may have to buy the stiffest thing available, then lop off a couple coils and make a spacer to get the needed rate.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:24 AM   #72
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that seating position doesn't look very aggressive at all. Actually, it looks like a mirror of the Honda GoldWing 'sit up and beg.' A lot of the motards have a goofy bolt-upright seating position though.

Yeah, that header configuration is a darn good fit. This thing's gonna look so freakin' cool! Make the fender fit those pipes! Ya know that rod that holds up the back of the seat, this one:


You could always remove that, weld a tab further back and use a longer rod if you need a bit more clearance for the exhaust. Maybe even remove them entirely and run one big pipe down the center as long it doesn't interfere with a tire. Then you could tuck the pipes along the outside underneath the seat and wouldn't have to try and bend them out in a tight space behind the shock.

You're right on that KTM fender. It's plain wrong.

That x650 rear is so freakin' dirtbikey. It gets my vote(even though we're not voting) so long as it doesn't screw with the turnouts on the exhaust.

I like the way the r100 seat runs up the tank too but the Honda seat wins the vintage contest hands down. That's a toughy. Maybe have both so you can change 'em out to match your shoes? I think Cosmo did an article on accessorizing to match your riding gear with the season. What's the hot look for spring this year?

I wonder if you could make a sheet metal or even fiber glass rounded cover for the top of the engine so it doesn't look so chopped off. It'd make a perfect toolbox.

That shifter looks so simple and straightforward--I'm looking at my bike wondering why BMW didn't do it like that in the first place.

man you're gonna have the coolest bike in the woods!
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:26 AM   #73
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OK, so the next day, DanEdg came over to help me get it rolling. Wirwrker has graciously given me a battery he thought would be perfect for this application, and I accepted. I still owe him money, but he did say hang onto it and make sure it worked, so even though I told him I'd get him some dough, I havent, yet. I am saying this OUT LOUD and publicly so that I will get to it. I believe its a 3.5Ah AGM. The ignition will draw about 3A while running, so theoretically I'll get an hour to two of running.

First thing I did was pull the front cover: I knew it was going to be sparse up there. I was pleasantly surprised.


And I dont even need the rotor- right now its just acting as a front crank seal. Anton clued me into a larger seal that I can swap into there and get rid of the extra pound or two.

Condersor, Points. Thats it. No dragons.


System needed a ground wire, and this tranny bolt provided a good one:


Added some cardboard spacer to rest the battery on:


Then Battery:



Then Ratchet strap to hold the whole thing down:



I put a four amp fuse on it, wired directly to positive terminal, and it worked, so four amps is ok, so far.

The kill switch I got with the bike I couldnt figure out... it looked like it either opened the circuit, or closed it to ground, which made no sense to me as an inline device. It seemed that with this switch I would either have the current stop in its tracks, or get driven to the bike frame. It would of made sense if it was the very last item inline, but my points are last, so I BASICALLY grabbed a different switch from the pile and wired it inbetween the fuse and the ignition coils. Works like a charm.

checking it out:




OMG THIS THING IS WEIRD



BUt it does work!




Here's Dan Edg with a shit eating grin:




and I took it for a ride in the woods, because, you know, you HAVE to.










and finally, the all important first video:

Fraulein (stagewife) know where first is. Dont let my snarkiness fool you.




You can almost see the suspension twanging all over the place... and also, we were keeping the throttle at idle so it wouldnt really blast us out. Sounds pretty good though!
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:19 PM   #74
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nice work
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:56 PM   #75
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He started mumblin' about havin' to clean it....
WTF?

AwRihgt! We'll change the corrugated cardboard battery holder!......
That's the part that kills me....it's totally battery operated...
he's gotta plug it in each nite....
...how green is that?
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