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Old 10-03-2012, 06:36 PM   #16816
Kingsized
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray h View Post
No problem, I'm just messing with you.
I took all kinds of guff from a couple of inmates for riding with my highbeam on so I'm just spreading it around.
It's all good. I never got my farkles in a tuff, ha!
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:52 PM   #16817
crofrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
it's not about finding the minimum necessary.

using 1 or 2 fingers allows you to maintain better control over the handle bars and throttle at the same time you are braking. you can use all 3 controls (plus the clutch on the other side) with fine input at the same time.

also, covering the brake with all the fingers you use to apply it allows you to apply it more quickly (as the fingers are already in place instead of having to reach for the lever). and covering the front brake level with 4 fingers all the time would sacrifice bar and throttle control.
Not to mention the first time your braking and the front starts to tuck with all four fingers on the brake is going to be awesome, as you try to reduce pressure on the brakes while pushing the bars back straight and and scaring the shit out of yourself...
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:54 PM   #16818
Barry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuzz View Post
Because that is what all the 'cool' riders do because they saw someone they thought was 'cool' doing it. Then they have to justify it ... hence the hair splitting and finger counting. It's kind of like how one peice leathers automatically mean you are a great rider

Monkey see, monkey do.
Give some people credit for espousing the method that works best for them, vice drinking the coolaid and parroting what others do. I am a 1 or 2 finger braker, and a 2 finger clutch person... dirt or pavement. That works for me, it works better than 4 fingers. If 4 fingers worked better, I would espouse that as the method that works for me. Please don't paint with so broad a brush.

Barry
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:59 AM   #16819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
it's not about finding the minimum necessary.

using 1 or 2 fingers allows you to maintain better control over the handle bars and throttle at the same time you are braking. you can use all 3 controls (plus the clutch on the other side) with fine input at the same time.

also, covering the brake with all the fingers you use to apply it allows you to apply it more quickly (as the fingers are already in place instead of having to reach for the lever). and covering the front brake level with 4 fingers all the time would sacrifice bar and throttle control.
If a new rider is braking, why do they need to use the throttle? As an experienced rider, I sometimes brake with two fingers and blip the throttle when downshifting to match engine RPM to road speed, but that's the only time that the throttle isn't rolled completely off when using the front brake.

Remember, this conversation started because someone that took the MSF basic rider course was told to use all fingers on their brake and they wanted to know why. It's simply because not covering the brake on the range, and using all four fingers when braking is the best practice for new riders, both for proper consistent technique and safety, for all.

If you (or anyone else) as an experienced rider, based on your experience and frequent practice with stopping quickly on your bike find that you can do so as safely and quickly with 2 fingers as you can with 4, that your other fingers don't get pinched or limit your brake application, then do it that way.

I haven't seen any riders, even new ones, sacrifice bar & throttle control from using all four fingers on their brake (or covering the clutch at all times), on the range or the street. What little off road riding I've seen I can CERTAINLY see the reason on rough terrain, but we're talking smooth pavement here where the bike's not bucking & bouncing.

...Orygunner...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe....With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up...
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:06 AM   #16820
Orygunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Not to mention the first time your braking and the front starts to tuck with all four fingers on the brake is going to be awesome, as you try to reduce pressure on the brakes while pushing the bars back straight and and scaring the shit out of yourself...
Are you talking about locking and skidding the front wheel? That's the only reason the bars are going to turn anywhere but in the direction of travel.

The proper technique when that happens is to quickly RELEASE the front brake and smoothly reapply. You can't "push the bars back straight" to maintain balance while the front wheel is skidding, simply releasing the brake will straighten the bars no matter what else you try and do.

I've seen some pretty gnarly front wheel skids on the range, and releasing immediately is the only solution. Every single person that released the front brake (before the bike was down, of course) regained control of the bike, even when they had been using all four fingers on the brake.

...Orygunner...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe....With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up...
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:24 AM   #16821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orygunner View Post
I personally use all fingers for most braking, but sometimes just use two depending on what I'm doing (slow speed manuvers or blipping the throttle while braking & downshifting). Sometimes I even just use one brake or the other.

...Orygunner...



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
Sweet Jebus. Are you better at braking with four fingers or two? It matters more what the rider is good at and comfortable with than how many fucking fingers they use!

There are a shit ton of motorcycles out there, that even with factory spec/service brakes, you still need four fingers on the lever to get maximum braking from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedder View Post
Right. New riders, so teaching a preferred technique that works on all bikes is better than teaching advanced skills.

Generally speaking it's much easier to "feel" the brakes with four fingers, even if it only takes one. I'm baffled why people are obsessed with finding the minimum number of fingers necessary on their bike.



Wear r d pikchures?

Victory! Victory!

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Old 10-04-2012, 06:34 AM   #16822
Flying-D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliken View Post
I have no opinion on his braking technique, and he seems competent enough, but IMO that is still the fugliest motorcycle ever made.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:35 AM   #16823
daveinva
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Originally Posted by hooliken View Post

Victory! Victory!

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Old 10-04-2012, 07:51 AM   #16824
Gummee!
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Avast! Its a whale!

...or is that a barge?

Either way, they're leaning their heads across the DY

M
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:54 AM   #16825
Herkmech
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Damn, I miss Tucson!

I miss Tucson!



Quote:
Originally Posted by azcycle View Post


It is! Though I probably ride so slowly I'd get made fun of on this thread. ;) Here is a shot I snapped looking down Mt. Lemmon Highway just above the halfway mark (Windy Point):




Me too... even for a pedal-bike ride.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:54 AM   #16826
hooliken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post

Avast! Its a whale!

...or is that a barge?

Either way, they're leaning their heads across the DY

M
How dare you sir?

How dare you even suggest that a BMW rider is not the most awesome rider on the planet?

You know they pull your ADV awesome card for less....
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:17 AM   #16827
crofrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orygunner View Post
If a new rider is braking, why do they need to use the throttle? As an experienced rider, I sometimes brake with two fingers and blip the throttle when downshifting to match engine RPM to road speed, but that's the only time that the throttle isn't rolled completely off when using the front brake.
According to the BRC manual (http://www.msf-usa.org/curriculummat...71_noprint.pdf) page 22. It says that the downshift is a 3 step process involving pulling the clutch in, changing the gear, and easing the clutch out while rolling on the throttle.

How are they suppose to accomplish that while maintaining accurate brake control with all four fingers on the lever?


Quote:
Remember, this conversation started because someone that took the MSF basic rider course was told to use all fingers on their brake and they wanted to know why. It's simply because not covering the brake on the range, and using all four fingers when braking is the best practice for new riders, both for proper consistent technique and safety, for all.
The problem is your "making training easier" crutch is setting the base for what the rider will build the rest off of.

Quote:
I haven't seen any riders, even new ones, sacrifice bar & throttle control from using all four fingers on their brake (or covering the clutch at all times), on the range or the street. What little off road riding I've seen I can CERTAINLY see the reason on rough terrain, but we're talking smooth pavement here where the bike's not bucking & bouncing.
I completely disagree. You give up bar control even on the street, but for the sake of discussion what if that emergency stop and swerve they're doing takes them into the gravel or grass shoulder? A large pothole? The handlebar clips the car they're dodging?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orygunner View Post
Are you talking about locking and skidding the front wheel? That's the only reason the bars are going to turn anywhere but in the direction of travel.
Yes.

Quote:
The proper technique when that happens is to quickly RELEASE the front brake and smoothly reapply. You can't "push the bars back straight" to maintain balance while the front wheel is skidding, simply releasing the brake will straighten the bars no matter what else you try and do.
You absolutely can use body English, balance and control to ride a locked front tire. Go watch the first dirtwise and watch that drill, the same thing applys on the pavement only easier. If you've got your front tucked under while going fast on a sport bike or SM bike and you suddenly release it not in a line have fun with the headshake / tank slapper.

Quote:
I've seen some pretty gnarly front wheel skids on the range, and releasing immediately is the only solution. Every single person that released the front brake (before the bike was down, of course) regained control of the bike, even when they had been using all four fingers on the brake.
When the body get's a surge of aderline it triggers the "fight or flight" response. One one of the things that happens is your fist clinch, I've been told it's because of vasoconstriction, but I'm not 100% on the reason. I am completely sure it happens, a clinched fist will apply more power to the front brake than 1 to 2 fingers, and it'll will be harder to modulate the pressure that is being applied.

I believe I understand the real reasons you teach it. You don't want someone to whiskey throttle and grab the front brake You don't want someone going around one of your turn drills and to get scared and grab the brake. So by having it uncovered and requiring them to use all 4 fingers you avoid those problems because it'll require them to think about using the brake instead of just stabbing at it. My problem is, you don't admit it for what it is. It's not the best way to brake and it's not building a good foundation for further skill development, and it's not helping build good bike control.

It's to make your job easier and keep the students off the front brake. Own it for what is instead of trying to defend it as a better way to ride, and be honest with your students about it.

crofrog screwed with this post 10-04-2012 at 08:34 AM
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:50 AM   #16828
Al Goodwin
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Please define "speed TRAP"..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wench On Wheels View Post
I don't know if it's related to his death or if it's usually like this..... but..... there were no less than 8 speed traps..... 5 in a 1/2 mile span..... by evening this past weekend.

Don't get caught doing 57 in a 30 on the dragon..... unless you've got great boobs and the cop who turned around to pull ya over has a thing for redheads.







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Old 10-04-2012, 09:05 AM   #16829
shelion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliken View Post
That looks like it may end in tears. Any follow up pics?
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:06 AM   #16830
RxZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Try finding a pad with a higher initial torque, increasing your rotor diameter or look at changing to a master cylinder with a different bore size.
None of that is worth it on this bike. I only spent a couple of K$ on the bike, I do not need to spend nearly half that upgrading the braking system when what I have will lock up both ends on anything but perfectly smooth roads. I installed ss brake lines, EBC sintered pads, DOT 4 fluid (no idea what brand). I have to squeeze hard, but the lever does not come all the way to the grips. Nature of the beast.
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