The KaTaMaki 650 ADV project (KTM LC4 gets a twin engine swap)

[Fubars]

I picked up a rolling frame for an LC4 3 years ago. I was going to put the WP front end on a KLR650 if I could find one (dirt) cheap, which didn't happen back then. After looking at that swingarm I figured using it for anything other than a right side drive was going to be hell. Trying to flip it upside down and modifying for a left side drive would've cost some Big Money.

Good luck.

[mousitsas]

Originally Posted by Fubars

I picked up a rolling frame for an LC4 3 years ago. I was going to put the WP front end on a KLR650 if I could find one (dirt) cheap, which didn't happen back then. After looking at that swingarm I figured using it for anything other than a right side drive was going to be hell. Trying to flip it upside down and modifying for a left side drive would've cost some Big Money.

Good luck.

Why would you need to flip it over to use it for a left hand drive? For example, hessler in germany (DrBIG expert) has fitted it to suzuki drBig's without too mamy modifications, other than a couple of welds for the brake caliper, if I remember correct.

[DRjoe]

wouldnt fit very easy but i reckon it would be a cracking engine for a dual sport.

[LukasM]

Originally Posted by Fubars

I picked up a rolling frame for an LC4 3 years ago. I was going to put the WP front end on a KLR650 if I could find one (dirt) cheap, which didn't happen back then. After looking at that swingarm I figured using it for anything other than a right side drive was going to be hell. Trying to flip it upside down and modifying for a left side drive would've cost some Big Money.

Good luck.

I agree, flipping the swing arm is a major operation. You would have to relocate the shock mount which is an absolutely critical part, as well as figuring out something for the upside-down brake caliper and chain guide. Way too much work, and I think it can be solved differently.

Originally Posted by mousitsas

Why would you need to flip it over to use it for a left hand drive? For example, hessler in germany (DrBIG expert) has fitted it to suzuki drBig's without too mamy modifications, other than a couple of welds for the brake caliper, if I remember correct.

Some welding will definitely be needed for the brake caliper carrier locating pin (or what ever you call that bracket that you slide the carrier on from the back). This is not the only problem though, as the carrier and caliper would be the mirror image of what you need, facing the wrong direction.

I thought about two possible solutions for this:
- Use an EXC carrier/caliper. They are left hand drive and use the same hub (20mm axle) and 220mm brake disc as the LC4.
- Use a DR650 carrier/caliper. Left hand drive as well, 20mm axle. Made for a 240mm brake disc, which can be solved by using a 950/990 disc (240mm) on the LC4 wheel (same bolt circle). This along with custom spacers was the solution for running KTM wheels on my DR.

I should still have a Duke swing arm somewhere in the garage (I assume this is similar to the LC4 one), and will try to work this out when we get our EXC back.

Originally Posted by Aussie Steve

You probably already know, but I was told the 640 motard has a wider swingarm, would make spacing the sprocket further out a bit easier. It also runs the pro link unlike the rfs ones which have the chain on the other side.

That's a good suggestion, and something I have considered as well. Always loved the idea of a swing arm so wide that it would allow 5.5" rim, as I could then also run a supermoto wheel set with the left over 180 tires from my track bike.

My concern was the material the swing arm was made of, and how I (or rather a buddy) could weld on the carrier locting pin. I know that it's cast, which makes it difficult either way. But I have also read that it is made of magnesium, can anybody confirm this?

[overlandr]

Originally Posted by markk53

How about a BSA or old unit Triumph? Sort of a unique blend of the past and the present. Maybe even a built XS650 twin... yeah, that's the ticket.

Another concept is to go genuine retro - say an old BSA pre-unit single if it could be squeezed in. Lovely to imagined the 50s plodder audio on 90s running gear!

[Beezer]

The unit single Triumph is a BSA engine. The pre unit engines are even more caveman than the "modern" Brit engines. I've stuffed a couple into more modern frames & they are cool, but they are what they are. You will have a push rod engine with 2 valves, and a right side shifting 4 speed tranny with a kinda weak 2nd gear. Also there is no balancer shaft, so it can only be tuned vibe wise to one RPM.... not something for a long road haul. I've also put an A65 twin into a Yami frame.... looked way kool, but again... too heavy for the power it produces, etc.

Why waste a great frame on that? I really think a light 500/650 twin is a worthy direction to go in. There is nothing like that in the US, and there is an abundance of top flight singles already made in that range.

[Flood]

Lukas, you know that Wayne&Wes Weber did practically the same thing a few years back with an EX500 twin in a custom frame?

The new Versys engine is the logical next step in that direction. A compact, easy to get twin in a dirt-worthy package. If you really want all the headache of stuffing a motor in a different frame, by all means go ahead. It's an extremely sensible idea and the factories are offering nothing like it. Either it's heavy and road oriented (Transalp, Versys), too highstrung and service intensive (Aprilia) or too big (990, HP2).

[LukasM]

Got some bad news unfortunately. The rolling chassis Adventure was sold this weekend.......


But I have some good news as well, I found another one and made the guy an offer. He just called me and accepted! The price was ok, and if the swap works out I can just sell the engine to somebody with a blown LC4 (they all do eventually ).... I am back in Spain for work right now, but a buddy is supposed to go pick it up today.

Next step is to figure out a way of checking if the 650 will fit into the frame. Preferably without having to buy one....

Two ideas I had:
- Call all Kawasaki dealers asking if they have an engine removed from the frame in their shop. Not sure how likely that is if it's as reliable as they say.

- Build a dummy engine, probably out of styrofoam or something else easily shaped. It won't be very accurate as I have to take measurements from an engine installed in the bike. The access for that on the Versys is decent but not enough to say for sure.

Any other ideas? Or even better, does anybody have a 650 engine in their garage?

Originally Posted by Flood

Lukas, you know that Wayne&Wes Weber did practically the same thing a few years back with an EX500 twin in a custom frame?

The new Versys engine is the logical next step in that direction. A compact, easy to get twin in a dirt-worthy package. If you really want all the headache of stuffing a motor in a different frame, by all means go ahead. It's an extremely sensible idea and the factories are offering nothing like it. Either it's heavy and road oriented (Transalp, Versys), too highstrung and service intensive (Aprilia) or too big (990, HP2).

Hi Remi,

Glad to hear I have your support! If it happens this build will take place in Vienna, so given my clumsyness I'll take all the help I can get.

I saw the Weber Rally Twin mentioned on Advrider but never really looked into it until starting this thread last week. Their thinking for a DS bike really resonates with me and is what I would try to reach. And they actually started out with a frame swap as well, which they had to hack apart, before building their custom frame. Let's hope that the new 650 will fit, according to Kawasaki it's "considerably smaller than the 500".

[Gustavo.Ramos]

Just a thought.

How'bout the carbed CB500 inline twin? 58CV, honda reliability, no FI, very economical. A tad bit heavy, but could be an option. Already thought about it for a bike project.

[Wylie]

Probably not the best suggestion but I have always been partial to the RZ350 2 smoke.
Pros, the motor can be built to rip and is pretty strong right out of the box, lower center of gravity I'd think.
Cons, fuel mixing, mileage, more wrenching...

[kyns]

I had 07 Kawasaki er 6 n.



I modified mine for track day use.

-Matris front suspension
-clipons
-Leo vince slip on (without db killer(loud!!))
-Power commander
-selfmade rearsets
-Bmc filter
-etc, etc...

Anyway, what i wanna say is: the engine is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!
During two summers 07/08 i did about 3500 km of full on track miles with it.
You can't break one of these. If i had a garage i wouldn't have sold mine, instead i would have build a rally bike out of it.
So please man build it.

By the way my Er had 77 horses and 69 nm of torgue, with modifications. So it should do gravel road power slides!!!!!

What kind of track bike you got Lukas?

[Beezer]

There's half a dozen for sale on ebay.....

[dentvet]

i've got a bare lc4 frame sitting here if you need any measurements. the engine bay is basically a trapezoid, 18 inches from top to bottom, 13 inches front to back, 8.25 inches at swingarm width. sorry my tape measure didn't have metric scale.

[alpiv]

Keep us posted, I've thought about this as well.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by Beezer

The unit single Triumph is a BSA engine. The pre unit engines are even more caveman than the "modern" Brit engines. I've stuffed a couple into more modern frames & they are cool, but they are what they are. You will have a push rod engine with 2 valves, and a right side shifting 4 speed tranny with a kinda weak 2nd gear. Also there is no balancer shaft, so it can only be tuned vibe wise to one RPM.... not something for a long road haul. I've also put an A65 twin into a Yami frame.... looked way kool, but again... too heavy for the power it produces, etc.

Why waste a great frame on that? I really think a light 500/650 twin is a worthy direction to go in. There is nothing like that in the US, and there is an abundance of top flight singles already made in that range.

I was talking twins. A sweet looking BSA engine would look pretty cool. Some guy did an FZR/BSA sportbike in Australia some time ago.