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Old 03-27-2013, 10:01 PM   #796
kamanya
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I looked at the frame in CAD, it still needs some work. A mounting tab is off the frame and one pipe is not extruded to the headstock and ends in midair.

Also, I'm not sure that its an adventure frame, it's definitely not a 950 adventure frame.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:01 PM   #797
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>>A mounting tab is off the frame and one pipe is not extruded to the headstock and ends in midair.

Maybe a conversion problem? Importing it into Pro-E resulted in a very clean model with nothing hanging in midair. I emailed the creator and he said it was good for +/-1mm, not too bad. From my initial measurements the headstock area is very close.

>>it's definitely not a 950 adventure frame.

I'm not sure but think that the base frame for all the 950 models are the same and the only difference in in brackets and such. There are subtle differences to the frame I have here but the tubes all seem to be the same.


>>I'll prolly be shipping them with a frame when you get it worked out.

Don't forget the forks too!
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:21 PM   #798
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Layout finally finalized

Got some more time in on the chain runs and now have a mock-up I am comfortable moving forward with.

Initial short chain run allows use of unmodified stock fuel tank and leaves area around rider's shin and legs completely open. There's just enough room to fit an o-ring chain to keep maintenance intervals long.


The secondary long chain run to the transfer case will be in a completely sealed housing. The underdrive ratio will be adjustable by changing one or both of the sprockets in this run. There will be chain guides and a tension system inside the housing similar to a camchain setup. This chain does not need to be an o-ring chain due to the sealed housing so will minimize lost Hp.


Also finalizing the bevel drive input shaft arrangement that needs to be welded to the back of the hedstock. The green piece is a female threaded spigot that welds into the frame. The red piece is the bevel input shaft 'cartridge' and is male threaded and has the bearings and seals and threads into the spigot. This will allow easy shimming of the input shaft to get proper gear engagement. It will also serve as the inspection window. On the twins a lot of stuff mounts onto the front of the steering tube so having an inspection window there (where the Christini one is) would be a problem.


To make it all fit there need to be some revisions to the coolant exit lines from the cylinders and the rear cylinder temperature sensor. The mods are not too bad and I am trying to source OEM motorcycle parts as replacements to avoid the need for custom components on replaceable parts. It should not be an issue but I want to make maintenance as brainless as possible as these bikes will do a lot of miles.

I'm waiting for some stuff to come in so will lay off for a week or so and put some time into boring work.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:04 PM   #799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosentinoEngineering View Post
I'm not sure but think that the base frame for all the 950 models are the same and the only difference in in brackets and such. There are subtle differences to the frame I have here but the tubes all seem to be the same.
Although the frames are all similar, there is a difference in headstock angles for the Adventure, Super Enduro, Super Duke and Super Motard;

Adv head angle - 63.4 Wheel base 1570mm
SE head angle - 64.4 Wheel base 1577mm
SM head angle - 64.6 Wheel base 1510mm
SD head angle - 66.5 Wheel base 1438mm
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:23 PM   #800
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Probably achieved using the suspension hight not by changing the frame.

I had a 950sm and a 950se in the workshop at the same time so I compared the two and the head stock was the same angle in relation to the frame on both bikes.
The only differene I could see was in the brackets for mounting the tanks, centre stand and a few other things.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #801
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Yeah, I was going to say that too. Keep in mind that in addition to lower suspension a 17" front wheel vs a 21" will affect the head angle as well. Triple clamps can be used to change offset to adjust trail but I think the basic frame itself is going to be essentially identical which makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint.

I love seeing that small additional chain coming off the countershaft. This is like putting a supercharger on a camaro (for you Chris) but not cutting through the hood - just a few subtle tells here and there. I love sleepers. This bike will be quite the monster with the 16T counter if that's what we have to go to. Say hello 3rd and 4th gear wheelies! Man, I can't wait to ride this bike. Again.

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Old 03-28-2013, 07:33 PM   #802
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>>This bike will be quite the monster with the 16T counter if that's what we have to go to. Say hello 3rd and 4th gear wheelies! Man, I can't wait to ride this bike. Again.

You can always drop the rear to a 38 or 39 to get the gearing back to what it would be with a 17 front. And a 17 front may work, it depends on how much case grinding you want to do. I am planning on having one piece sprockets made and it would be easier to only make one size but it would not be the end of the world to make 2. Also, don't forget that changing rear gearing will affect the front wheel underdrive ratio. I don't think adventure riding is like roadracing where you have a specific setup for each track so with the 2WD you find the gearing you like and stick with it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:04 AM   #803
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I run 16/42 for the 17/19 wheel set up, and have second rear sprocket carrier to run 16/45 with the dirt wheels on. Both work great...


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Old 03-30-2013, 03:08 PM   #804
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>>I run 16/42 for the 17/19 wheel set up, and have second rear sprocket carrier to run 16/45 with the dirt wheels on. Both work great...

Do the chain adjusters allow enough movement to use one chain for both sprockets?
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:09 PM   #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosentinoEngineering View Post
>>I run 16/42 for the 17/19 wheel set up, and have second rear sprocket carrier to run 16/45 with the dirt wheels on. Both work great...

Do the chain adjusters allow enough movement to use one chain for both sprockets?
Yup, but you have the flip the adjuster over between set-ups (one side of the block is long, the other is short, theis reduces the need to adjust the screws so much..,)


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Old 03-31-2013, 06:02 AM   #806
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Don't know if it was answered already...

I see how the drive train conveys power to the headstock, but how does the power get down to the from wheel? Chain? Something in the fork leg?
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:04 AM   #807
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Power loss

Also, isn't there a lot of power lost to all those chains and gears?
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:06 AM   #808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
I see how the drive train conveys power to the headstock, but how does the power get down to the from wheel? Chain? Something in the fork leg?

So the chain will go inside a run to a 90 differential and clutch gearbox behind the headstock. This is where the disconnect will be so the drive can be shut off. A shaft goes into the headstock and turns a shaft concentric with the steering stem (seen here)...



... and inside the lower triple clamp there are two chains that turn the shafts that you see in the photo above (on the right). Those shafts telescope with the forks and counter rotate to drive both sides of a freewheel hub in the front wheel. It's important to drive both sides so the bike doesn't pull to one side. The freewheel hub means that the system is always being under driven and so doesn't work until the rear wheel is spinning. You can change the ratio but it's generally around 60-70% of the rear wheel and that's been arrived at through testing. If you were to drive the front at 100% you would always be fighting the torque of the drive system and so steering would be affected. Less and you're not getting the benefit of the drive.

To answer your question there's minimal loss in the system because it's not being driven all the time. When the rear wheel is spinning is the only time that the system comes into play and so at that point you've already lost significant power through traction loss and this is giving you that drive back.

Having tested the small Christini bikes when I was rally racing I was really impressed at how they helped recover traction that was lost when the bike was just spinning - it was amazing how the bike could claw it's way back into a corner. Conversely and around the same time I was beginning to ride my 950 harder off road and if there was ever a bike that suffered from lack of traction in the dirt it was the 950. That much power is simply impossible for one wheel to put to the ground in dirt. To me the 950 is the bike that needs help more than the 450's when it comes to putting power to the ground. If the rear tire can't do it there's only one other place the bike touches the ground and that's the front. Aside from that the 950/990 is a bike that can't be muscled like a 450 so finding and using traction is more important.

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Old 03-31-2013, 07:35 AM   #809
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Here's some CAD drawings I found that probably explain the system better.



So thats what you're not seeing in the bottom of the triple clamp.



And this is the drive system in the front hub.

I'm sure as Chris continues he'll post more photos and I know he's making some significant modifications to the system as he goes to make it fit and work specifically for the big bike.

My plan is to get both wheel sets prepped for the bike and to spend the summer dialing in the suspension and drive ratios and then ride the bike down to Steamboat for the KTM rally.

Gregor
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:47 PM   #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
... It's important to drive both sides so the bike doesn't pull to one side.
Question:

Why would the front wheel pull to one side with a single drive? If that were the case, why are shaft drive bikes only driven from one side? What about that single sprocket on the rear? Single disc brakes? They don't pull to one side.

I could see a potential problem if you only had one fork, it would want to rotate axially if it were by itself, but it's prevented from rotating because the front axle is secured to the other fork. Not to mention the fork brace.

I was a large tonnage chiller mechanic for 20yrs: I understand the dynamics of rotating machinery, stabilizing devices and counteracting torque, but you guys are the engineers and fabricators: please explain how single-sided power transmission would adversely affect bike control given the other factors I stated.

Thanks in advance
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