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Old 09-29-2013, 09:52 AM   #946
sakurama OP
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Ow!?

Does that mean dropping the engine out and removing the rear pot to do that?

If so, what a pain!
Not sure yet. This is part of the process but if you're going to go down this road the engine is coming out regardless unless you plan to ride your bike to Chris' shop and drop it off. Honestly though, compared to machining the headstock, welding in a gearbox and the rest of the changes replacing a stud might not be the most involved part of the process. This isn't a small project!



Maybe if I can get Chris back on board with casting big bore cylinders it won't seem so troublesome!

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Old 09-29-2013, 11:40 AM   #947
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Dropping an 950 engine wont take long. And i even suck at this but manage to pull it off in fairly manners.

...and again Gregor, those photos and your writing. Its pure pleasure to be along. The process and progress is equal in delight, if that makes sence.

regards from Denmark(world most happy people?)
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:23 PM   #948
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>>A longer stud will replace the left rear cylinder head stud so that it can anchor there

A little was lost in translation. If the engine is not being rebuilt the stock length stud can be used and I make an upside down top-hat shaped nut to replace the OEM KTM head stud nut. If the engine is being rebuilt that stud can be replaced with one a little longer and then you can use the standard nut. Its likely something I shouldn't even have mentioned and does not really make a difference one way or another.


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Old 09-30-2013, 05:29 PM   #949
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Wow this is amazing :-) I accidentally stumbeled on this one, too bad this is not in "some assembly required" part of forum, I believe that you would get a great feedback from the engeneering population of the forum :-)

I am really enjoying this build
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:14 AM   #950
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Gregor's all finished then?
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:21 PM   #951
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Just zipping it all up for testing on Sat. Have to pick up a rivet master link as they are the same width as the chain where the clip style are about 1mm wider. Things are tight with the chain so that's room that is not there.

DID has a new narrow 520 x ring chain (520VT2) that's 3mm narrower than the 525 which would make things positively spacious down there by the output sprocket. Its rated at 8400lbs and I wonder if it would be suitable for a 950.

Any thoughts?
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:05 PM   #952
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Originally Posted by CosentinoEngineering View Post
Just zipping it all up for testing on Sat. Have to pick up a rivet master link as they are the same width as the chain where the clip style are about 1mm wider. Things are tight with the chain so that's room that is not there.

DID has a new narrow 520 x ring chain (520VT2) that's 3mm narrower than the 525 which would make things positively spacious down there by the output sprocket. Its rated at 8400lbs and I wonder if it would be suitable for a 950.

Any thoughts?
There have been folks that have changed to 520 chains that I've seen before, and that chain seems to be rated about the same as other 520 chains (in tensile strength). Of course, they're not the type of people to try to get 20k miles from a chain, either. . . . 525 zvmx, the most popular replacement chain, is rated at 10,400lbs, but that chain is probably overkill for a bike that makes a little over 1/2 the horsepower of some sportbikes.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:56 PM   #953
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There have been folks that have changed to 520 chains that I've seen before, and that chain seems to be rated about the same as other 520 chains (in tensile strength). Of course, they're not the type of people to try to get 20k miles from a chain, either. . . . 525 zvmx, the most popular replacement chain, is rated at 10,400lbs, but that chain is probably overkill for a bike that makes a little over 1/2 the horsepower of some sportbikes.
However....what wears out chains is torque, not power. Even more so the number of pots. A twin and a single with exactly the same power and torque will not wear their chains in a similar manner.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:08 PM   #954
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>>However....what wears out chains is torque, not power.

I've found that lack of regular maintenance is really what wears chains out! I use a 520 on my single cylinder racebike (300lbs but slicks with 48ft-lbf torque) and haven't replaced it in years!

I called DID and they hemmed and hawed about it when I laid out the overall torque levels compared to a Duc 1098 but said it was not much weaker than the 525 that was already on the bike and the 525 was fine for the Duc.

Since I have all the 525 chains here we'll test with them and if necessary go with the 520. It does not really change much wither way for the balance of the parts except for taking a 1/32" off the sprocket width.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:47 PM   #955
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I would have thought the only real difference would be the smaller contact patch in the socket causing it to wear slightly quicker.

Saying that I don't think it will be an issue and I have no problem with running the 520 chain.

What's the short chain from the CS to the long chain going to be?
The standard Christini is a non o ring chain that doesn't last very long, I fitted a good quality x ring chain but the 450 has a bit more clearance on its dual sprocket.

Can't wait to see how you did the enclosed chain run.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:01 PM   #956
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I just bought Flannys - Flannymobile.. It lives! I had no idea what I was getting myself into... So you need to keep the building!

But love the build! looking forward to seeing the end result! I may have to start on building her up some more!
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:44 PM   #957
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Practice Makes Perfect

And I must be getting good at assembling this thing! I lost count of how many times I have to take it all apart to tweak something then put it all back together then repeat!

Sorry for the lack of posts then one big one but.........at least you are getting something!

We left off with Gregor redoing his forks and me working on finalizing the shimming and starting the countershaft area. Here's some shots of the final headstock mods running right into the chain run mounts.

This is the inside of the headstock reamed with needle rollers installed.



This is the transfer case and bevel drive installed.



Now time to finish up the countershaft area. As from the previous discussion about chain widths things are tight down there! Not easy to fit 3 chains where there is normally only one.



This is where some of the delay in the past couple of weeks happened. I had originally designed in CAD a nice arrangement that took care of all the mounting in what I thought was a good way. A big billet chain housing that tied together the jumper shaft and the transfer case. Everything's fine. Right?



Only once I got the transfer case installed and started the chain runs this design didn't pan out in the real world. Shaft and sprocket access was a bit sketchy and I had a couple of really big billet parts that seemed a bit overkill. I needed to think a bit. I often forget it but thinking is really what I am selling people. Without knowing what to do progress is impossible and the only way to figure out what to do is to think. So I needed to think a bit with parts in hand.

As usual with a revision and parts partially assembled the design came much easier, which is a good sign. A small outboard shaft support would take care of the chain loading forces and a simple thin backplate would tie the sprockets together and mount the chain guides but not be structural. A simple cover would provide dust and water protection. The billet engine mount, originally intended to be a temporary locating part and seen in a couple of Gregor's last shots, became part of the final design. The shaft is a large keyed shaft so there are no set screw loosening issues. The sprockets are inexpensive with slight modifications from stock items.

Using the billet engine mount as a shaft locator I machined a beefy outboard support that would be welded to the frame. This part has a needle roller bearing and a seal but is accessible from the outside of the frame and the shaft can be pulled completely out.



In this shot you can see I still have the KTM nut partially threaded on the head stud.

I machined a retaining ring groove in the bore so I could include a little o-ring and cap plate seal which allows the shaft to be removed. there's something cool about spinning non-round parts on a lathe. And machinable internal expanding collets rule!



I also had to modify the rear sprocket carrier for chain run alignment. If we switch to the narrow 520VT2 then the standard carrier can be modified. If I stay with the 525 rear chain then a billet carrier is needed as the chain offset is too much to accommodate with the OEM part. I think going with the 520 chain will be the way to go as it always better to have a little extra clearance than being right on the edge. As Joe pointed out it would be mostly sprocket wear and nice light steel sprockets are available that will give a good enough service interval. The carrier was a large part for my manual lathe so I had to get creative and use a boring bar upside down with the spindle spinning in reverse to make the cut.



Here's the outboard support ready to be welded in. I just couldn't weld that block on without machining a couple of lightening pockets.

And after welding:


Things are tight but good with a stock gas tank on the inside of the frame:


To compensate for the lack of a structural chain box I added some diagonal bracing to the transfer case mount to stiffen it in the direction of chain tension:



And also modified the engine mount and made a suitable cylinder head nut. The nut is collared so the threaded section extends through the aluminum part to ensure adequate thread engagement. The mount part will be cleaned up in the final version.



Here's the final countershaft area with welded sprocket. The stock KTM sprocket nut is used but upside down after machining a square shoulder, again to ensure adequate thread engagement with the double sprocket.


While redesigning the the secondary chain run I finally got some feedback from a roller chain manufacturer. The curved full length guides I had previously drawn (and copied the style of from the silent chain drive on my V4 engine) were not really suitable for roller chains. They like either nothing or small arced guides. Most importantly, the tension run should be straight, not have the slight concave radius that link chains prefer.



Its not obvious in this picture but the internal guides are straight for the lower tension run with a slight amount of clearance and a short arc for the upper slack side. I didn't want to do something complicated here yet as a first ride to see what the chain wants to do is a good idea before going into a lot of detail. It would be fine to leave this chain open and use a o-ring but it would throw chain crap all around the underside of the tank and make a mess. Covering it allows the use of a non-o ring chain which has a lot less friction.

I was planning on test riding this weekend but got caught out by a minor detail. The 420V o-ring chain that is used on the short run comes with a clip master link that is about 1.5mm wider than the rivet one. I ordered a few for overnight delivery on Wednesday but they screwed up and are arriving on Monday. It's a real bummer but there's just no room for the clip style. This chain is very short so keeping a spare in the toolkit would make swapping it out simple and no worries about breaking and crimping a chain while on a trip.

The rest of the bike is coming together nicely, only need to install the front driveshafts then putting all the stock crap back on and its a go.



Ahhh, the end is in sight.


Oh, I also have a bunch of jets for testing the choke once it is all reassembled. I hope this late summer stops soon to and give us some cold mornings for test starting.

Bummed but happy.


Chris
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CosentinoEngineering screwed with this post 10-04-2013 at 11:52 PM
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Old 10-05-2013, 12:03 AM   #958
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Bravo! This is seriously impressive engineering

How repeatable is this? Not can you do it again but how much quicker/more economically can this be performed?

... and did you say chokes???
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Old 10-05-2013, 12:04 AM   #959
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Now that's progress! Cool that the end is in sight.
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:54 AM   #960
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Does the key and axle carry the torque or are the two sprocket fixed to each other?

If the key, I would have thought it would be safer to have the two sprockets fixed to each other?

Fooken brilliant work!
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