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Old 01-29-2012, 07:28 PM   #31
jcf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm-2008 View Post



Note: Stock Metrallas will run OK with the ignition set anywhere from 2.8 - 3.2mm BTDC.
If set at less that 2.8mm BTDC they will occasionally kick back when idling and run backwards! makes for an interesting experience at the traffic lights, if it happens it's a sure sign you need to check the timing.



Hope this information is useful and apologies to all if this has been posted previously.
Regards,
JM
I had that happen to me - very strange, but it did stop when I reset the timing.
Now I know why...
Thanks.

Good timing also as I am in the middle of re-wiring my M8

Thanks JM
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:48 AM   #32
Pistol
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I also have a '65 M8 200cc with an Amal Monobloc on it. I've cleaned the carb thoroughly, but still struggling to get the bike started. Seems like the timing was set by the prior owner at around 3.5 mm BTDC (at least that's where the points appear to open up).

Still getting my arms around the peculiar 6V electrics on this bike--pardon the dumb question, but since the bike has a magneto, does the ignition spark occur with the opening of the points, or the closing?

Thanks for any expert input here.

P
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:50 PM   #33
jm-2008
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Timing

[QUOTE=Pistol;17893186]I also have a '65 M8 200cc with an Amal Monobloc on it. I've cleaned the carb thoroughly, but still struggling to get the bike started. Seems like the timing was set by the prior owner at around 3.5 mm BTDC (at least that's where the points appear to open up).

Still getting my arms around the peculiar 6V electrics on this bike--pardon the dumb question, but since the bike has a magneto, does the ignition spark occur with the opening of the points, or the closing?

Thanks for any expert input here.

If it has the traditional Femsa points ignition it should spark when they open.
As mentioned earlier they will run from 2.8 - 3.2 ish or thereabouts.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #34
jcf
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I am no expert - but the manual dice between 3,25 and 3,50

Have you done a compression check ?

How about a pic of that M8 Pistol ?
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:48 PM   #35
Pistol
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Thanks jm-2008. I thought that was the case, but when i reset the FEMSA ignition points to open at 3.25 BTDC the bike still won't start...guess I'll try retarding the timing a bit more and see what happens.

I also reset the points gap to 0.40 mm (.016"), which I believe is appropriate. Don't have the tools to do a compression test...will have to test one thing at a time here.

P
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:52 PM   #36
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Manual setting for points ; 0,35 - 0,45

My bike had starting issues. Especially when warm ( ambient temp as well as running ).
Did the compression test and it was low.
Because there is no head gasket it is a real issue.

Not sure if your tail light might be a problem as well.
I think it was only the M23's , but if the tail light ( or brake light ? ) was out the bike wouldn't run.
If yours has the original tail light set up there is only a single wire leading to it and I don't think it had the same issue.

Looking at your pic again - I think you have the M23 license plate/tail light set-up.
Do you have a rear brake light switch ?

There are a few reasons P Schrauber is not a big fan of the Metrallas - and he IS an expert.

Great looking bike - Heidenau's on it ?
Very nice.
Mine is all ready to go - just waiting for the weather to break.........and waiting.........
I really miss riding it.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:19 PM   #37
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Starting

[QUOTE=Pistol;17895756]Thanks jm-2008. I thought that was the case, but when i reset the FEMSA ignition points to open at 3.25 BTDC the bike still won't start...guess I'll try retarding the timing a bit more and see what happens.

I also reset the points gap to 0.40 mm (.016"), which I believe is appropriate. Don't have the tools to do a compression test...will have to test one thing at a time here.


Re timing,
In theory the 'correct' method is to -
1) Ensure the points are clean with no spikey build up on the mating pads (I dont worry about pits on one side, just be certain you don't have a build up on the other side)
2) Rotate the crank counter clockwise until the points are fully open (this is often hard to check as from memory the slot in the flywheel is not in the right place to check easily)
3) Set them to aroung .015" gap
4) Rotate the stator backing plate in either direction until the points open at the required position BTDC (this is likely to test your patience as it will require removal of the Magneto flywheel, relocating the stator backing plate, refitting flywheel, checking timing etc etc until you have an aneurism!)

My non spec tried an true method is as follows -
1) Remove magneto flywheel
2) Ensure points contacts are clean by pulling a piece of emery tape through the contacts until both sides are smooth and shiny
3) Pull a piece of clean paper through the points to remove any residue from the cleaning process (the slightest piece of grit, dust, fluff will stop or make them very hard to start)
4) Ensure the points cam inside the flywheel is free of surface rust , however fine (rust on the cam will wear down the point heel and cause loss of points gap, retarding ignition timing very quickly)
5) Put a drop of oil on the felt wiper and ensure it actually touches the points cam inside the flywheel
6) Move the stator plate so the three screws are roughly in the middle of their respective adjustment slots and tighten them in that position.
7) Refit the flywheel
8) Rotate it to the desired position BTDC
9) Now open up the points slowly till they break contact and tighten them in that position (the gap will be between .015 - .018" and more than near enough to run properly!)

Note:
Items 1 - 6 are preparatory
7 - 9 are the actual adjustment

Lots of reason as to why I do it this way, too long a dissitation to explain but it works just fine.
Have used this method on Bulty's & early Husky's with Femsa points system and it's reliable.

Note also: if the spark is weak, clean the points with a piece of clean paper and make sure you dont leave any lint between the pads - check again.
If the spark is still weak, remove the green coming from the magneto from the junction block under the tank and ground it.
This should make the spark very strong, bright blue and sound with a healthy 'crack'
If this does not improve the spark, you have other issues.

Pulling paper through the contacts will also show if they are not clean and smooth as it will grab and tear.

Let me know how you get on.

Regards,

JM-2008
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #38
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Wow, many thanks jm-2008, for taking the time to list out your recommended timing-reset procedure...I will get at it again this weekend and let you know how it goes.

jcf, the bike obviously isn't perfect/original, that's for sure...but it's plenty close enough for me, especially once I get it running again! And yes, Heidenau's front and rear.

P
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:24 PM   #39
jm-2008
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No Head Gasket

jcf

Did the compression test and it was low.
Because there is no head gasket it is a real issue.


Seems like I'm hijaking this forum however I hope this info is of interest to those new to Bulty's.
(The older crew will probably have learned all I have to offer here through their journey with the Marque)

lack of head gasket should not be an issue as if done correctly will ensure a good gas seal.
Next time you have the head and barrel off the motor lap the head/barrel mating area to ensure a good seal.
Simply place a small dab of valve grinding paste on the mating area inside the head recess where the top barrell spiggott fits in the head. place on the barrell and gently rotate back and forth to lap the two parts to a perfect gas seal.
Clean thoroughly and check the joining faces are an even light grey colour indicating (hopefully) an even mating area.
Tighten the head nuts progressively in a criss-cross manner and for those that have the two extra studs fore and aft as with Matadors, some Sherpa's, Alpina's etc tighten these last.
When done re-check all have even-specified tension.







Whilst I (sadly) don't ride my MK2 250 all that often these days it has for the greater part been a very reliable starter.
The green wire to earth improves spark immensely, and with fresh fuel is usually a one kick starter!
Most of the bad press these bikes (and for that matter most bikes) get is usually down to lack of knowledge on preparation.

FWIW once set up correctly the Amal concentric on my Mk2 would wear out approximately three slides to every needle/needle jet replacement.
As the slide wears they will idle erratically and coupled with wear in the needle/needle jet will load up in the mid range area.
Slide wear is easily recognised however the needle jet not so easily.
Once again from memory the needle jet will/should have a very small shampfer where the needle slides in, when worn the shampfer dissappears on one side. This coupled with wear on the needle will result in a richening up of fuel delivery in the corresponding section of throttle opening.
Can drop the needle one groove but this will usually make it too lean.
Get them set up right and keep an ear (and eye) open for any changes in the way they run and you will have years of enjoyable pleasure with them.
Very simple technology, not much to go astray.

Remember the basics -
Fresh fuel
Adequate compression (primary and secondary)
Good spark in the right place (BTDC)

If these three are correct they should run.


Regards,
jm-2008
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:42 PM   #40
jm-2008
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jcf
Is that an R25 or R60/65 frame at the back of your man cave?

Pistol
Very clean and shiny, puts mine to shame.
Collected all I need for a restoration years ago but it's the retirement project and as I'm getting closer may get round too it some year soon!

Thanks for sharing the pic's everyone.
Think it's providing the inspiration to get moving on the project.

JM-2008
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:58 AM   #41
jcf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm-2008 View Post


Seems like I'm hijaking this forum however I hope this info is of interest to those new to Bulty's.
(The older crew will probably have learned all I have to offer here through their journey with the Marque)

lack of head gasket should not be an issue as if done correctly will ensure a good gas seal.
Next time you have the head and barrel off the motor lap the head/barrel mating area to ensure a good seal.
Simply place a small dab of valve grinding paste on the mating area inside the head recess where the top barrell spiggott fits in the head. place on the barrell and gently rotate back and forth to lap the two parts to a perfect gas seal.
Clean thoroughly and check the joining faces are an even light grey colour indicating (hopefully) an even mating area.
Tighten the head nuts progressively in a criss-cross manner and for those that have the two extra studs fore and aft as with Matadors, some Sherpa's, Alpina's etc tighten these last.
When done re-check all have even-specified tension.







Whilst I (sadly) don't ride my MK2 250 all that often these days it has for the greater part been a very reliable starter.
The green wire to earth improves spark immensely, and with fresh fuel is usually a one kick starter!
Most of the bad press these bikes (and for that matter most bikes) get is usually down to lack of knowledge on preparation.

FWIW once set up correctly the Amal concentric on my Mk2 would wear out approximately three slides to every needle/needle jet replacement.
As the slide wears they will idle erratically and coupled with wear in the needle/needle jet will load up in the mid range area.
Slide wear is easily recognised however the needle jet not so easily.
Once again from memory the needle jet will/should have a very small shampfer where the needle slides in, when worn the shampfer dissappears on one side. This coupled with wear on the needle will result in a richening up of fuel delivery in the corresponding section of throttle opening.
Can drop the needle one groove but this will usually make it too lean.
Get them set up right and keep an ear (and eye) open for any changes in the way they run and you will have years of enjoyable pleasure with them.
Very simple technology, not much to go astray.

Remember the basics -
Fresh fuel
Adequate compression (primary and secondary)
Good spark in the right place (BTDC)

If these three are correct they should run.


Regards,
jm-2008

Hijack away !!! Great stuff and clearly presented.

What I meant was if the seal was not good (as in my case) the lack of compression would make the bike hard to start.
I did what you describe and it's fine now.
Makes a big difference.

That's an R50 frame - came with my R69S
- I think I need a bigger living room.

Best
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:29 PM   #42
Pistol
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For jm-2008: An update on resetting timing on the '65 M8:

Followed your suggested approach, including cleaning the points. Pulled the flywheel off, checked the location of the 3 screws holding the stator plate on. They're nowhere close to the midpoint--in fact, if I moved the plate to that position, the points wouldn't open anywhere close to the recommended level BTDC. So I shifted the plate back to its original position, then reset the points to just start to open at 3.25mm BTDC, using the two screws as outlined.

But here's where some confusion still exists for me--your notes suggest that I should set the points gap to .015" at the point where the points start to open up (3.2mm BTD); my understanding, from rereading the workshop manual, is that the points gap (which represents the MAXIMUM distance the points open up) should be set LATER in the cycle, where the two small windows in the flywheel are at the 10 o'clock/8 o'clock position (essentially past TDC).

If the points need to open only very slightly to set off the spark, I could understand this. If that's not the case, I'm confused, because the way the flywheel cam is set up, the maximum points gap seems to occur long after the points start to open. My guess is that if I set the points gap at .015" at 3.25mm BTDC, then the gap would ultimately be far greater a bit later in the cycle (just past TDC).

Thoughts? Comments?

By the way, bike still won't start.

P
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:04 PM   #43
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3.25 seems off for timing - i would think 3.00 ... i could be wrong, i haven't timed a metralla in about 6 months. i usually time most buls depending on ignition and which head to 2.80-3.00
set points at maximum opening of .015"
set indicator with piston at 3.00mm
i use a buzz box, or dmm on buzz/continuity.
turn points plate till points close. turn the other way till the buzz or continuity is 0 - you'll see when you get there.
tighten points plate screws.

maximum gap will be much later than your timing setting. when the points break, that should be at 3.00mm (or whatever timing setting you decide upon) with an imperceptible points gap starting... the points need to stay open for a duration is all.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:01 PM   #44
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[maximum gap will be much later than your timing setting. when the points break, that should be at 3.00mm (or whatever timing setting you decide upon) with an imperceptible points gap starting... the points need to stay open for a duration is all.[/QUOTE]

That's what I thought. Thanks for the tip. Don't have a buzz box, but will try resetting the points at 3.0 mm BTDC with a light box and see where that leads.

P
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:19 PM   #45
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if it kicks back or pings at 3.00 back it off a bit to 3.25..
i've found the buls need to be soaked to get started when cold - if you're running a monobloc, hold that tickler till it's dripping.
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