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Old 08-27-2009, 06:26 AM   #151
llamapacker
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I have no interest in the KTM or a boeing, but I was looking at a BMW F800GS, makes a difference to me.

Didn't notice the crossmember being bent earlier, that would probably need to be cut out and a stronger piece welded in with the ears already attached of course. I weld and mod, so could fix that ONE, but the design still exists, I don't like it.

P.S. Oh yeah, the GS is pretty heavy right now. Weighed my wife's 658 with bags and bars, only 15lbs lighter than my Tiger with full tank of gas and bags, bars. So don't start trying to sell me how light it is, not buying that either.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:17 AM   #152
Bruno T .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
As a public service, many here should pop over to orange crush and tell everyone how KTM engineers screwed up on the design of that bike since the subframes and frames bend occasionaly.

Same with KLR's.

Heck, my uncle is a proffesional engineer with Boing and would you believe that landing gear struts bend and even break when jumbos land hard, perhaps if I get you guys a picture you can inform him how they should be engineered!

My thought is that it is not just the upper mount that needs beefing up, after all, haven't a few bent the lower mount bolt as well? And to think, that mount only has an 1/8" gap on each side, we better make it less!

Actually I heard someone bent their handlebars, better add 20 lbs to them.

Ohh ohh the wheels, many bend rims all the time, better add at least 50 lbs of meat a rim.

Actually, let's just make the bike so heavy that it sinks if someone tries to ride it off road, that should fix any bending problems :)
That's how a 9 year old would frame it.

Another way would be;

It isn't feasible to engineer components to a standard which encompasses all variables. There will always be extraordinary circumstances which fall outside of the scope of the component's engineered parameters.

And i certainly agree with that.

I'll repeat myself just so it's clear.

I consider the circumstances under which my bolt bent to be extraordinary. I consider them to fall within the category of extraordinary because;

a) The rear shock was subjected to a fairly violent G-out
b) I was not using the factory installed shock
c) I'm not certain that the spring rate was correct on my aftermarket shock
d) Since replacing the components the problem has not re-occured

I will also repeat myself with regard to the design of the rear shock mount.

Since i'm not an engineer, i have no clue as to the strength of the rear shock mount. Under the circumstances described above, in my case, the bolt bent. Nothing more, nothing less.

From my layman's perspective, in comparison to the various other shock mounts i depicted, the mount on the F8 looks inferior in strength. Note how i state "looks inferior". I can only say it that way because i have no factual information to prove that statement.

Again, the mount as delivered from the factory has proven adequate for my use (as explained in an earlier post) barring the circumstances i mention above.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:12 AM   #153
Law Dawg (ret)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamapacker
Didn't notice the crossmember being bent earlier, that would probably need to be cut out and a stronger piece welded in with the ears already attached of course. I weld and mod, so could fix that ONE, but the design still exists, I don't like it.
Just a thought here (not an engineer but I can think...sometimes, even though it hurts). Even if the cross piece is replaced how would one go about returning the two outside frame members to their original width? How about other related/attached frame geometry? This one needs to be fought at the highest levels of (shudder) BMW corporate. I'd hold out for a new bike as your frame makes me fret.

That said, if BMW corp does what we long time Beemer riders expect it to and kicks you to the curb, I will be very interrested in what your redneck tech redo looks like. Seems to me that if you replace the cross brace some further modifications could be made to the top mounting for the shock. Fingers crossed for you.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:52 PM   #154
johngil OP
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BMWNA is requesting more photos. I don't think I have posted this one before. This was the original bent bolt and stock shock. I've been under that seat a lot.


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Old 08-27-2009, 03:58 PM   #155
Lion BR
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I guess removing the ABS paraphernalia should help with weight reduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by llamapacker
I have no interest in the KTM or a boeing, but I was looking at a BMW F800GS, makes a difference to me.

Didn't notice the crossmember being bent earlier, that would probably need to be cut out and a stronger piece welded in with the ears already attached of course. I weld and mod, so could fix that ONE, but the design still exists, I don't like it.

P.S. Oh yeah, the GS is pretty heavy right now. Weighed my wife's 658 with bags and bars, only 15lbs lighter than my Tiger with full tank of gas and bags, bars. So don't start trying to sell me how light it is, not buying that either.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:59 PM   #156
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Why in every third or fourth comment does someone mention the Ohilns as a possible culprit?

John has said multiple times the bolt bent with the stock shock. BMW should replace the frame. The End. Was the bolt under torqued, or some other part at fault? Possibly the but the end result is a bent shock mount and it needs replaced.

My F800 just arrived today and it may be the last BMW (#6) I own and at the rate things are going, I'm going to give BMW until next spring (which I shouldn't but I don't want to deal with it right now) to get this bike sorted or its gone and so is my business. My last BMW 05 R1200 had one warranty item otherwise it was great and it was a first year model. The F8 has some teeth cutting problems if you look at the Beasts top threads they aren't screaming go buy an F800GS.

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Old 08-27-2009, 07:12 PM   #157
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Joel makes a good point.
Time will tell what the truth is here fellas. In the meantime, I bet John gets a new frame or a new 2010. Thats my guess. Heres hopeing the best for John
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:56 PM   #158
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Holy Shit Batman

Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
Ya think?



If I have to fix this myself, this is kind of what I was thinking. It may be cryptic, but some of you get the idea. The yellow would be new and welded in.
This wouldn't be a big deal if the cross tube weren't bent. Still, I don't think it is heavy enough to carry the load over time.

I've been fallowing this story, and I was convinced that it was a simple problem of the bolt not being tight enough. This set of photos tells me a differant story. It look, to me, that BMW designed a ton of leverage on a lot of parts. The bolt has a ton and the cross tube also has a TON. Look at any dirt bike and you'll see that the force of the rear shock is transmitted in as straight line as possible to the back bone and on to the steering head. The BMW design is relying on a cross tube that is perpendicular to the shock. What did they think was going to happen? To me( a dummy welder) it looks like the only way to "fix" this is to replace the cross tube and try to fit a/ some tubes to transfer the force of the shock in a strait line to the frame.The bunt cross tube looks bent beyond the point of coming back, it's stretched too much. I have been involved in the welding/machine shop business for 33yrs now. I'm not an engineer, but I've seen a lot of broken and bent stuff. Most of the time the parts tell you what needed to be done. If BMW won't take care of this let me know, my shop is and my skills are yours.
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Old 08-28-2009, 04:40 AM   #159
Bigem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8toilet

My F800 just arrived today and it may be the last BMW (#6) I own and at the rate things are going, I'm going to give BMW until next spring (which I shouldn't but I don't want to deal with it right now) to get this bike sorted or its gone and so is my business.

I think a statement like that is a bit premature, don't you?

What will you post in 6 months time if you have no problems?

Will you apologise for shit-canning something that YOU supposedly paid big money for?

Personally, I love the bike and fully expect some issues, that's the nature of the beast.

Going on the sheer numbers of F800GS's being sold around the world(even Australia is buying 200+ a month), the actual real world numbers of problems is very very small and from some of what I have read and seen, some issues are owner induced.

Of the half dozen people I know who own them, nobody is having any issues that I know of.

Same can't be said of some other well selling bikes around at the moment!
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:14 AM   #160
guzzimike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigem
I think a statement like that is a bit premature, don't you?

What will you post in 6 months time if you have no problems?

Will you apologise for shit-canning something that YOU supposedly paid big money for?

Personally, I love the bike and fully expect some issues, that's the nature of the beast.

Going on the sheer numbers of F800GS's being sold around the world(even Australia is buying 200+ a month), the actual real world numbers of problems is very very small and from some of what I have read and seen, some issues are owner induced.

Of the half dozen people I know who own them, nobody is having any issues that I know of.

Same can't be said of some other well selling bikes around at the moment!
The Internet is a dangerous place for paranoid people.
On the Guzzi forum I sometimes frequent the paranoia would increase a lot in the northern winter when people had nothing better to do than worry about what was wrong with the bike
Of the half dozen people I know who own them, nobody is having any issues that I know of.

Same can't be said of some other well selling bikes around at the moment![/quote]
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Old 08-28-2009, 06:41 AM   #161
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Mines great. No problems so far. 4000 miles and counting...
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Old 08-28-2009, 06:55 AM   #162
v8toilet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigem
I think a statement like that is a bit premature, don't you?

What will you post in 6 months time if you have no problems?

Will you apologise for shit-canning something that YOU supposedly paid big money for?

Personally, I love the bike and fully expect some issues, that's the nature of the beast.

Going on the sheer numbers of F800GS's being sold around the world(even Australia is buying 200+ a month), the actual real world numbers of problems is very very small and from some of what I have read and seen, some issues are owner induced.

Of the half dozen people I know who own them, nobody is having any issues that I know of.

Same can't be said of some other well selling bikes around at the moment!
Sent you a PM as my post and further replies will just be a thread jack.

To sum it up. I never made any comment regarding price not sure where you got that. You post contains somes good trends in sales vs reported failures and personal experience which is reassuring. I'll be glad to eat my words.

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Old 08-28-2009, 07:13 AM   #163
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I think you are onto something here. I would perhaps re-phrase it to say that it is difficult to separate the widespread issues to the rare occurrences because:

1. We don't have all the information. BMW certainly knows what is a predominant failure and what is not. They are not letting us know.

2. A good chunk of us tend to suspect moral hazard by default. The paranoia concept you talk about.

3. When hooliganism takes place (wear your colors, KTM vs BMW, etc.), exaggerations always take place, one way or another.

4. We tend to try to get leverage out of a failure because of all of the above.

Therefore, for the case of the "shock bolt design flaw" so far we have heard of two cases. One of them has failures on the top and bottom of the shock attachment. The other one has an aftermarket shock where the aftermarket shock manufacturer already acknowledged its failure (if I remember the facts correct). If the number of occurrences stay this low, I would doubt even an experienced prosecutor could be able to say this is a design flaw, notwithstanding the engineers .

For the case of the wheel bearings, that appears to be a completely different story. We hear more and more cases about this. It seems like it is a predominant problem. We will know more about this.

The cracking fuel tank. No doubt it is a problem. So far it appears to be cosmetic. We will know more about this as well.

The other issues (computer mapping, front axle, air/fuel systems, gas gauge, etc.) appear to have been resolved. The clutch, I guess that is still up for a decision.

What is next?

Lion



Quote:
Originally Posted by guzzimike
The Internet is a dangerous place for paranoid people.
On the Guzzi forum I sometimes frequent the paranoia would increase a lot in the northern winter when people had nothing better to do than worry about what was wrong with the bike
[/quote]
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:16 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
What is next?

Lion


[/quote]

OK I've got next.
Cooling fan
Out of 2 bikes old mate and I have 100% failure rate.
Both our fans have seized. Old mates actually boiled over while at idle.
Mine showed OIL light (go figure) while in gridlock traffic with ambient temp at ~18c.
My bike has seen some dust, Steve's not.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:25 AM   #165
johngil OP
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If it helps, I really miss my bike.
I was just getting her right.
More talk w/ BMWNA. The engineering team is working on the case at this point.

You nasty bitch!
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