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Old 09-16-2009, 02:37 PM   #196
R75/5
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Hi John,
I followed this thread with great interest.
Although I do not take my F800GS to the same extremes than you - I simply don't have the experience, the physical condition and, last but not least, the guts to get down and dirty with a 200kg rig like I used to with my long begone Maico - I give mine off and on a spin on the local moto-cross trails (mostly sand here in this region) but all pretty benign stuff and at moderate speeds. Therefore my interest.
Now this thread focussed a lot on what the F800GS should be able to withstand and what BMW NA should cover under warranty. Which is fair enaugh, there is a lot to say to that.
To explain my next remark I might chip in at this point that here in France BMW does not give any extended warranty to their dirt bikes or damage to DS bikes when taken off-road. Neither does my collision insurance cover off-road obtained damage (could get this included, but would be outrageously expensive). So here the rule of thumb is: If you go out in the dirt and play rough, you better know what you're doing.
While I still think that the fact that your suspension packed-in big time really sucks, I'm also of the opinion that you took a very expensive piece of equipment off-road and rode it really hard to its limit (stock-shock bottoming regularly...). Certainly we could spend with good reason a night and a keg of beer discussing if this limit is actually where the commercials „unstoppable ...“ seemed to have placed it. But either way, you seem to have enaugh off-road experience to be well aware of the risks of a component failure and the associated financial damage.

But either way: You have my full sympathy in this story and I am really happy for you that BMW NA sorts out the damage under warranty.
So far so good. But then I did read over this passage (emphasis by me):


Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
[... snip ...]
I'm concerned that the frame replacement will be less than perfect simply because this is a job done on a production line. Nothing personal against my dealer, but they have never done this on an 800 GS before.
I will assume new steering head bearings and races would be needed. The entire ABS system will have been dismantled and reassembled. On and on. This isn't going to be a factory made bike anymore. That may kill my resale value.
The communication between my dealer and BMW could be much better in my opinion. [... snip ...]
I somehow could not get over this remark, John. There was a cynical thought going through my mind:
Does this really mean someone thrashes his Beemer through the dirt - apparently not too concerned about the resale value - until he requires a frame replacement and although he even gets subsequently the repairs done under warranty for free, he is then (!) concerned about the repair affecting the resale value ?!?
Now I don't really think this was what you intended to say and I probably overinterprete a harmless or careless remark quite a bit. But I would be actually pretty happy if you could put me at ease here.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:35 PM   #197
trustme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R75/5
Hi John,
I followed this thread with great interest.
Although I do not take my F800GS to the same extremes than you - I simply don't have the experience, the physical condition and, last but not least, the guts to get down and dirty with a 200kg rig like I used to with my long begone Maico - I give mine off and on a spin on the local moto-cross trails (mostly sand here in this region) but all pretty benign stuff and at moderate speeds. Therefore my interest.
Now this thread focussed a lot on what the F800GS should be able to withstand and what BMW NA should cover under warranty. Which is fair enaugh, there is a lot to say to that.
To explain my next remark I might chip in at this point that here in France BMW does not give any extended warranty to their dirt bikes or damage to DS bikes when taken off-road. Neither does my collision insurance cover off-road obtained damage (could get this included, but would be outrageously expensive). So here the rule of thumb is: If you go out in the dirt and play rough, you better know what you're doing.
While I still think that the fact that your suspension packed-in big time really sucks, I'm also of the opinion that you took a very expensive piece of equipment off-road and rode it really hard to its limit (stock-shock bottoming regularly...). Certainly we could spend with good reason a night and a keg of beer discussing if this limit is actually where the commercials „unstoppable ...“ seemed to have placed it. But either way, you seem to have enaugh off-road experience to be well aware of the risks of a component failure and the associated financial damage.

But either way: You have my full sympathy in this story and I am really happy for you that BMW NA sorts out the damage under warranty.
So far so good. But then I did read over this passage (emphasis by me):



I somehow could not get over this remark, John. There was a cynical thought going through my mind:
Does this really mean someone thrashes his Beemer through the dirt - apparently not too concerned about the resale value - until he requires a frame replacement and although he even gets subsequently the repairs done under warranty for free, he is then (!) concerned about the repair affecting the resale value ?!?
Now I don't really think this was what you intended to say and I probably overinterprete a harmless or careless remark quite a bit. But I would be actually pretty happy if you could put me at ease here.
Edited:- Bmw has built & marketed the bike as a 'go anywhere', 'do anything' world beater. However you, the rider should never put this to the test , if the bike fails it is invariably your fault , your bike must always remain in benign territory & be treated as a show pony.
Re Frame swap = non matching serial numbers = bastard bike = reduced values , Thats how it works with classic bikes, why would this be any different ?
I'm not bagging the bike, but unless Johngil is being completely disingenuous & I dont for a moment believe he is , I think he has some very vaild concerns & issues
If R75 is right, then BMW should make it transparently clear that these bikes are not suitable for offpiste.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:48 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trustme
Edited:- Bmw has built & marketed the bike as a 'go anywhere', 'do anything' world beater. However you, the rider should never put this to the test , if the bike fails it is invariably your fault , your bike must always remain in benign territory & be treated as a show pony.
This is utter bullshit. I took mine out on a camp-ride last weekend. I rode the crap out of it. Pushed it as hard as I would care to. Nothng broke. Had a fall or two... but I did not take it and try to bottom the rear shock. Why? Because parts break on any bike when you bash it hard enough.

My pesonal opinion is that this bike is tough enough to ride the world. Pople have already started doing just that. Are there tougher bikes out there? Sure... people ride the world on anything from a KTM 950/990 (which is way pain in the ass to work on BTW.....) to a cagiva, Suzuki, Honda Goldwing or even an Aprilia or MV Agusta.

Ride what you like. But in this case one or two people who ride hard enough to bend a shock mount does not mean BMW has done something wrong. Damn if that is the case then recall every KTM 990 because it might swallow the chain guide and strand you on a trip.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:20 PM   #199
Bayner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank
Ride what you like. But in this case one or two people who ride hard enough to bend a shock mount does not mean BMW has done something wrong...

I don't usually jump on the bash another inmate bandwagon, but this statement is retarded. Some of us are riding our bikes harder than others (a subjective value) and are very interested in the reprocussions of doing so. I bought this bike partly based on it's advertised prowess as an offroad machine. I'd really like to know if BMW binned the bike they used to film/shoot some of those promos. IMO, they in fact did do something wrong, with either their advertisements suggeting the bike is capable of feats it is not, or by failing to engineer some things to withstand the abuse it is likely to take from those who took their ads literally. I feel very sorry for John as it could easily be me in his shoes. Therefore my interest in this thread. If you don't care about the outcome, just ignore our ranting and be happy.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:24 PM   #200
trustme
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Gangplank , you are riding it in exactly the way you should ride it & doing exactly what BMW says it was designed for . Things will break, anything breaks if pushed hard enough. The grey area is where riding stops & abuse starts. Johngil was not abusing his bike , just riding it hard. The inference from R75 is that the failure is his fault when it seems to me he was riding it within it's design perameters & it suffered major structural damage.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:27 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayner
I don't usually jump on the bash another inmate bandwagon, but this statement is retarded. Some of us are riding our bikes harder than others (a subjective value) and are very interested in the reprocussions of doing so. I bought this bike partly based on it's advertised prowess as an offroad machine. I'd really like to know if BMW binned the bike they used to film/shoot some of those promos. IMO, they in fact did do something wrong, with either their advertisements suggeting the bike is capable of feats it is not, or by failing to engineer some things to withstand the abuse it is likely to take from those who took their ads literally. I feel very sorry for John as it could easily be me in his shoes. Therefore my interest in this thread. If you don't care about the outcome, just ignore our ranting and be happy.

Safe to say I ride mine like they do in the promo....
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:29 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trustme
Gangplank , you are riding it in exactly the way you should ride it & doing exactly what BMW says it was designed for . Things will break, anything breaks if pushed hard enough. The grey area is where riding stops & abuse starts. Johngil was not abusing his bike , just riding it hard. The inference from R75 is that the failure is his fault when it seems to me he was riding it within it's design perameters & it suffered major structural damage.
Yep. Rode it off road for 300 miles this weekend. Last weekend was steep and rocky fire roads. I don't jump it over boulders.

Ia m not saying it was John's fault or that he abused the bike. What I am saying is don't say the bike can't do what was advertised. It can.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:43 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
My riding style may be faster or more aggressive than the intended user for this machine, but that's not saying much. I haven't launched this bike or hammered sets of stadium whoops w/ it. I have never even crashed (in motion) this bike. I can ride all day long and come back for more tomorrow. That said, I ride so that I can ride again another day. I would expect this bike to hold up to frequent off road use.
This is from pages ago. Again, I do not blame Johngil. If in fact he does ride it harder than its inteded purpose. That purpose, if you ask me, does in fact include light to medium off road use. Did they advertise you could do more? I ride mine off road pretty much every weekend or two. Mine is holding up just fine despite a few fall-me-overs (none in fast motion really). All I was saying above is bash the bike all you want but it can and does do its intended purpose for most purchasers. It will ride off road and it will ride around the world and others have.

Whatever. I continue to subscribe to this thread because I want to see the end result of Johngil's bike. I expect now that BMW will rebuild it for him. If in fact they send over a frame and it is new and build to spec. I don't see how that would devalue the bike - has anyone here ever checked anything other than a VIN when buying a used bike? Now will it get a new VIN? Curious?
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:51 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank
This is from pages ago. Again, I do not blame Johngil. If in fact he does ride it harder than its inteded purpose. That purpose, if you ask me, does in fact include light to medium off road use. Did they advertise you could do more? I ride mine off road pretty much every weekend or two. Mine is holding up just fine despite a few fall-me-overs (none in fast motion really). All I was saying above is bash the bike all you want but it can and does do its intended purpose for most purchasers. It will ride off road and it will ride around the world and others have.

Whatever. I continue to subscribe to this thread because I want to see the end result of Johngil's bike. I expect now that BMW will rebuild it for him. If in fact they send over a frame and it is new and build to spec. I don't see how that would devalue the bike - has anyone here ever checked anything other than a VIN when buying a used bike? Now will it get a new VIN? Curious?





I don't know how BMW does it, but, at H-D the dealer cuts off the frame neck and sends it back to the Warranty God and the new frame gets the same number. I have one!
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:58 PM   #205
trustme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank
Yep. Rode it off road for 300 miles this weekend. Last weekend was steep and rocky fire roads. I don't jump it over boulders.

Ia m not saying it was John's fault or that he abused the bike. What I am saying is don't say the bike can't do what was advertised. It can.
I guess I was being a little cryptic because that is not what I was saying at all. I was replying to R75 who appeared to infer that it was John's fault because he was using it offroad in a way that it was not designed or intended for, when it appears to me John was using it in exactly the manner that BMW suggests it is more than capable of handling. I'm not bagging the bike, I know it is extremely capable having followed one recently until I got sick of him chucking rocks at me as he gassed it down every straight.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:30 PM   #206
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The new frame is due in tomorrow. We will see what the VIN situation is. It could be blank, or it could have a # stamped in.
I have retrieved the bike and will be removing my Holan crash bars and any non-factory electrical modifications I have made (GPS power and satellite antennae).

I can understand the big question mark in everyone's head re: my riding habits and how this has related to my frame bending/failing.
I guess BMW could explain it better than me. They obviously believed there was some merit in my case. I did several things wrong and not by the book in this case, yet BMW still is picking up the tab. My digital camera earned it's keep. The photos have told a story and BMW bought it. To this day, the bike has not been taken apart by the dealer or BMW. I have not been obnoxious or threatened anyone. I asked for warranty repair, and I am getting it. In my opinion, it is because the design is flawed. Notice I said "in my opinion".
The masses here claim to be hammering out some pretty heavy use w/ their 800's and they are holding up fine. As Joel has said, there was probably nothing I could have done (within reason) that would produce such an outcome to my bike by riding it hard. There seems to have been some kind of material flaw, or assembly flaw involved.

I really don't know what else to add to the story here. The 800 was a "change" bike for me. Financially, I decided to hang up desert racing and enjoy the scenery w/ an adventure bike. I am a dyed in the wool KTM guy, that purchased a BMW. I really have enjoyed the bike, and plan on giving this bike another chance. I will be inspecting the ass end of this bike after every ride. I will not ride the bike w/ the stock shock, unless it is only to go to the store for a beer or three. I will report my findings.

In the same way the Bitubo fork kit eliminated bottoming in the forks, the Ohlins should prevent bottoming in the rear. Unfortunately, I waited 6000 miles before I replaced the stock shock. The damage to the frame was most likely done at this point. I really can't explain the low spring rates given to the bike. Big mistake, again in my opinion.

I feel BMW has stepped up to the plate here in regards to listening to me and doing what they feel is right.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:06 PM   #207
cisco
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Puke

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
R75/5 makes some good points in a reasonable respectful way. I can tell you what Volvo does when you bend the frame of their SUV, Void your frame warranty and charge you up the ass to repair it. I know of at least one inmate who KTM did the same to.

My suspicion is that Johngil was riding the bike hard but within it's ability and his shock mount bent because it wasn't properly torqued from the factory, but thats just a guess.

I don't know John and it is also possible he was riding in a way that would bend the frame of any bike, he could also be a rapist and serial killer. I doubt this, personally I like the guy from what I have read that he has written, but honestly, you can not really tell anything from a post on the web for certain. Unless there is evidence of a defect, mass numbers of failures, or you were riding behind John when his shock mount bent, you are only guessing.

In this case, BMW has taken John at his word which I respect.

Gangplank also makes good points. Reread his post and you will find that what he thinks is bullshit is trustme's post, he quoted it after all.

trustme has a stick up his ass against BMW and and is deliberately bating BMW owners.

Personally I have just taken to hitting the "blame maddbrit" button anytime someone posts something mean and will continue to do so and remind him them publicly that they are being an asshole until one of us gets kicked off this board or they post about something else.

They funny thing is trustme's writing style and content are the same as nedodjija, both of whom have the same avitar and both of whom seem to hate BMW, Hmmm, wonder if they are the same person in disguise???
I thought it was the same person.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:14 PM   #208
johngil OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R75/5
I somehow could not get over this remark, John. There was a cynical thought going through my mind:
Does this really mean someone thrashes his Beemer through the dirt - apparently not too concerned about the resale value - until he requires a frame replacement and although he even gets subsequently the repairs done under warranty for free, he is then (!) concerned about the repair affecting the resale value ?!?
Now I don't really think this was what you intended to say and I probably overinterprete a harmless or careless remark quite a bit. But I would be actually pretty happy if you could put me at ease here.
My remark was regarding frame numbers not matching original. I don't know about France, but in the US the frame/engine numbers ARE the bike (legally) as much as the bike itself. I don't know how else to explain this.
As for abuse??? The reason I have requested warranty service is based on my belief that I used the bike as intended/advertised. I don't see the inherit abuse you sense from across the sea. Apparently, BMW agrees. Something wrong happened in my case. I don't think BMW typically gives away a few thousand dollars worth of repairs for no reason.
When shopping for an F800 GS, try to find any BMW advertisement that shows the bike on pavement. I haven't seen any.
My wheels are still round, and my bike has never been crashed in 8500 miles. Not bad in either of our countries, I would say.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:23 PM   #209
Matt W
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Glad BMW helped you out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
The new frame is due in tomorrow. We will see what the VIN situation is. It could be blank, or it could have a # stamped in.
I have retrieved the bike and will be removing my Holan crash bars and any non-factory electrical modifications I have made (GPS power and satellite antennae).

I can understand the big question mark in everyone's head re: my riding habits and how this has related to my frame bending/failing.
I guess BMW could explain it better than me. They obviously believed there was some merit in my case. I did several things wrong and not by the book in this case, yet BMW still is picking up the tab. My digital camera earned it's keep. The photos have told a story and BMW bought it. To this day, the bike has not been taken apart by the dealer or BMW. I have not been obnoxious or threatened anyone. I asked for warranty repair, and I am getting it. In my opinion, it is because the design is flawed. Notice I said "in my opinion".
The masses here claim to be hammering out some pretty heavy use w/ their 800's and they are holding up fine. As Joel has said, there was probably nothing I could have done (within reason) that would produce such an outcome to my bike by riding it hard. There seems to have been some kind of material flaw, or assembly flaw involved.

I really don't know what else to add to the story here. The 800 was a "change" bike for me. Financially, I decided to hang up desert racing and enjoy the scenery w/ an adventure bike. I am a dyed in the wool KTM guy, that purchased a BMW. I really have enjoyed the bike, and plan on giving this bike another chance. I will be inspecting the ass end of this bike after every ride. I will not ride the bike w/ the stock shock, unless it is only to go to the store for a beer or three. I will report my findings.

In the same way the Bitubo fork kit eliminated bottoming in the forks, the Ohlins should prevent bottoming in the rear. Unfortunately, I waited 6000 miles before I replaced the stock shock. The damage to the frame was most likely done at this point. I really can't explain the low spring rates given to the bike. Big mistake, again in my opinion.

I feel BMW has stepped up to the plate here in regards to listening to me and doing what they feel is right.
I have been following this thread and waiting to see what happened. I am glad BMW is stepping in to help. After I read this thread, I went to my manual and warranty info. and technically as I understand it, and as it reads to me, they could have told you to pound sand.(pun intended after last couple of photos posted by John).

It makes me feel good that a company is doing something, although some will feel to much and some will think not enough, to help keep its customers riding their products.

These photos from BMW definitely drew me to the bike for sure.





Hope you get to ride soon John.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:33 PM   #210
johngil OP
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Truth be told, I would never ride my 800 like that!

Yes, BMW could have turned me away. The rest of the saga will continue at the dealer/customer level.
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