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Old 03-08-2010, 05:40 PM   #676
tmex
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Just to be clear, F8GS is substantially lighter than me. We rode the same trails when he did a JohnGil on his frame with the Ohlins Shock. My bolt was simply bent a small amount using the OEM shock. I replaced it and properly torqued the new bolt and it is bent slightly again.

I also believe the orginal bolt was properly torqued based on my "impression" when I removed it.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:41 PM   #677
Boon Booni
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As the bent shock bolt turns.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:54 PM   #678
Apostolos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
My bolt was simply bent a small amount using the OEM shock. I replaced it and properly torqued the new bolt and it is bent slightly again.

I also believe the orginal bolt was properly torqued based on my "impression" when I removed it.
If this happens to me, each time the bolt bends I will bring the bike into the dealership for a bolt replacement. If it happens more than three times and BMW does not have a solution for it, then I will be pursuing the "lemon law" consumer protection here in california.

I certainly would not want to keep a bike outside of its warranty that had a problem like this.

God bless,
David
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:06 PM   #679
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C'mon people. Let's re-group and remember we are (mostly) on the same team here.

I started this thread because I was in total shock as to what happened to my bike. I also felt it important that others check their bikes as well. I didn't expect to hear everyone say they had a bent bolt or frame. No harm in checking.
A little hands on on your own bike is a good thing anyways.

The design, as stated, is very unconventional. That in itself does not make me uncomfortable. I try keep open minded.
However, after a couple twelve ounce engineering classes, I don't like it. Math or no math.

I'm not formally educated in any engineering field. I am a consumer. I am a rider of a 2009 F 800 GS. I have had a problem. I know how I ride and what the bike has been through. And the list goes on.
I think in time there will be several bent bolts. How badly bent? Some worse than others.

I'm not personally attacking anyone here or being condescending (I hope).

Keep an eye on your bike. All of it.
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:22 PM   #680
Apostolos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
My bolt was simply bent a small amount using the OEM shock. I replaced it and properly torqued the new bolt and it is bent slightly again.

I also believe the orginal bolt was properly torqued based on my "impression" when I removed it.
California Lemon Law Information

The California Lemon Law applies to vehicles
  • In the first eighteen (18) months or first eighteen thousand (18,000) miles, after vehicle delivery
  • Repaired for serious safety problem at least two (2) times
  • Required repairs four (4) or more times for the same problem
  • Out of service for a cumulative total of thirty (30) or more days
I would imagine a broken shock bolt would be considered a "serious safety problem." If it's bending, then it's overstressed and can lead to a serious safety problem. Or if you bend 4 bolts and have them replaced within the first 18k miles, then BMW is liable under CA lemon law.

Like I said, if it were I, I'd be back in the dealership getting everything documented and trying to get a permanent resolution from BMW.

God Bless,
David
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:27 PM   #681
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Would that be a new bike at every 4 bent bolts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolos
California Lemon Law Information

The California Lemon Law applies to vehicles
  • In the first eighteen (18) months or first eighteen thousand (18,000) miles, after vehicle delivery
  • Repaired for serious safety problem at least two (2) times
  • Required repairs four (4) or more times for the same problem
  • Out of service for a cumulative total of thirty (30) or more days
I would imagine a broken shock bolt would be considered a "serious safety problem." If it's bending, then it's overstressed and can lead to a serious safety problem. Or if you bend 4 bolts and have them replaced within the first 18k miles, then BMW is liable under CA lemon law.

Like I said, if it were I, I'd be back in the dealership getting everything documented and trying to get a permanent resolution from BMW.

God Bless,
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:36 PM   #682
Apostolos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
Would that be a new bike at every 4 bent bolts?


Actually, that's one avenue of recourse. Another would be a refund of money, or cash compensation for trouble, etc.

God Bless,
David
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:49 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
Just to be clear, F8GS is substantially lighter than me. We rode the same trails when he did a JohnGil on his frame with the Ohlins Shock.
I believe I know when my bolt bent. I was riding about 60mph and hit a washed out culvert ditch. I saw it in time to float the front wheel over it. The back wheel hit the far side hard enough to bottom the shock and throw the rear into the air. Between the bike and the Ohlins shock (certainly not my skill ), I didn't crash.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:06 AM   #684
BillyD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F8GS
I believe I know when my bolt bent. I was riding about 60mph and hit a washed out culvert ditch. I saw it in time to float the front wheel over it. The back wheel hit the far side hard enough to bottom the shock and throw the rear into the air. Between the bike and the Ohlins shock (certainly not my skill ), I didn't crash.
I'll add that culvert to the roll chart...just for you and Tmex.

It doesn't take a masters in mechanical engineering to see that this upper shock mount was designed by a moron.

Practically every other mono-shock motorcycle in the universe has a true double shear mount that transfers the load to a major frame member (i.e., main backbone).

This piss poor design has neither...it's laughable really. I'm very confident, however, that BMW will eventually change its design for future production and come out with a fix for in-service bikes.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:10 AM   #685
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and from another POV...

so what do these three pics have in common???

1,,,tmex's rear disc side disintegrated wheel bearing



2,,,rash of front axles breaking




3,,,a several reported incidences of rear shock bolts and and their anchors bending



4,,,front rims bending like butter....

What they have in common is failure of the powers that be that just sold you an over $10,000 motorcycle pimped for it's ability to take you anywhere on road and off pretend en masse that their are no problems ''that we have heard of'',,or so it seems from the feedback of an endless slew of disgruntled customers.

What this does is folks airing their grievances on these threads,,spending oodles of time chasing after this and that notion ,,without stopping first to get their bearings and systematically analyze the probable causes and their effects....most of this stuff is not rocket science...

BWOE tmex's bearing failure thread and my parallel threads generated over 1000 posts!!! ,,,,i only got in on the action half way in and found the cause and solution within an hour of the customer bringing in his wheel.

two days ago i stumbled on this thread and it has taken most of my time to wade through it... i almost didn't chime in,,,and i have to because this forum has the potential to do an incredible amount of good...part of the weekend was spent adventure lurking in all kinds of forums...and got a chance to see the spirit in which they expected their members to participate...i've been trying to find the one that had an articulate message..it inspired me to share my concerns...the following lines were repeated in varying degrees in numerous other posts i read ..for your perusal...speaking of our f800 forum:
www.horizon
sunlimited.com/hubb/bmw

''Heaps of info on ADV, but I'd recommend you take what you read with a grain of salt. A lot of whining, people jumping on the band wagon and blowing problems out of proportion. Its by no means perfect, but most of the problems/recalls are for the early production runs and have since been dealt with. AFAIK, the 2010 models have been problem free so far.''

the terms whiners/blowhards/wannabees/lame leading the blind etc etc used to describe the ''inmates'' ''in the asylum''[are we self fulfilling prophecies???],,,here's the advice this moderator gave in this one forum:
* chime in if you have something to contribute
*spare the personal cat-fights/one upsmanship/ego tripping
*bring concrete info and solutions to the table
*enlist trusted members with experience to chime in
* be part of the solution and not the problem,much less add to it!!!
*think of the folks that have to wade through all the BS to get to the beef
*you can learn a lot by just lurking and not filling up the thread
* i or you all can add some more thoughts..

at this stage there hasn't been a positve conclusion for the cause and effect,,,however,looking at the evidence i'll posit that this set-up is borderline sketchy as best and it's working hinges on extremly tight 100Nm torque on a marginal bolt and anchoring system.

it'll work if IMHO:
1,,the bolt is torqued to spec

2,,you do not bottom out consistently

3,,you use the oem shock with it's wider handprint on
the bolt,,hence the ohlins narrow handprint focuses/localizes the load in a narrow spot midway between support structures that are
too wide apart,,,not good,a prescription for failure/bending

it'll work better if IMHO:
1,,the left and right support bushings are wide enough diameter wise and rest solidly against the shock and the frame,,FYI the same scenario plays out in your rear wheel/swing-arm/spacers and axle assy...if the spacers are too small in diameter where they rest against the wheel and swing-arm..you increase the chances of the axle flexing excessively and or bending under heavy loads...been the r and done that with all the drag race set-ups we've built.

2,,your aftermarket shocks are reconfigured to have the load spread over a broader/wider surface and have a solid wide enough surface for the lateral spacers to rest against.

3 ,,the frame/shock supports were closer together

4,,a beefier bolt were used

nuff of that,,now onto some hopefully constructive notions,,,
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
The direct #/e-mail address thing helped in my case.
I got the feeling these folks knew everything that had gone on w/ my bike before I even told my story.
[quote=johngil] ,,,I feel very fortunate to have two reps and two direct phone numbers that get me past all the gatekeepers to a real live person that seems to hold some ability and authority to make some things happen through my dealer that no amount of effort has been able to do up to this point.,,,]

[quote= 1bmwfan] Hey Joel, back away from the kool-aid!!! I just got off the phone today with New Jersey. You know, BMW Mottorad. They stated POINT BLANK that they have a small staff of individuals who do EXACTLY that, tour the forums.

Check the recall thread for my info on that.]

folks,,the above little snippets summarize the essence of a game plan out of this cunundrum we customers are having with getting heard and our problems resolved...it lies in gaining access to the movers and shakers in corporate headquarters,,,those entities that like in johngils' case listened and resolved the issue pronto for him ....why not the rest of us?

now john are you going to guard your inside sources???,,,or where you sworn to secrecy like a newspaper reporter??

would you be willing to share those resources at BMW motorrad usa..???
i have a plethora of evidence backed by facts that i'd like to share with someone willing to listen and make a difference.... especially when it comes to what works in the realm of building a decent wheel for you all.


and 1bmwfan,,,can you engage the lurkers and establish a dialogue with them ask em to join us like i was asked,,give em a thread in vendor forum..''ask bmw about your problems''

and you Joel,,gosh i appreciate your chiming in and being open minded,,i'd definitely support you turning your energies form jousting with the inmates to finding out just who and where those folks are
that can nip these fires in the bud and sharing with us

take the issue of the x-laced wire tubeless wheels sported on the big GS bikes....and the myth of their invincibility that results in anything that goes wrong with them being foisted on the riders shoulders...''you must've hit a rock/chuckhole /railroad track etc'' with no recourse but to buy anew wheel...because they are unrepairable.,,,,well we at advrider KNOW that that's not true...i share this because i detect a crack in their armor,,just like you john,,a customer with never ending vibration problems went corporate,,dropped the anecdotal evidence and for the first time in 37 years they sent him to a shop in colorado. they re-imbursed his dealer upon presenting his invoice, i asked him to share with you,,so far i haven't heard a thing... was he also asked to be silent???,,like out of court settlements.
all these actions maintain the myth of ''what problem''

kinda like the catholic church and all the incidents that got swept under the carpet with hush money,,,however there were a few souls brave and outraged enough to not settle,,,we are in a similar position,,,and i speak as a fellow beemerphile owning a car and 5 motorcycles from the marque.

so let us take our energies and resolve this proble,,, create a better fix if necessary if ''they'' choose not to listen....

one need go no further than our newspapers and follow the quagmire the most trusted brand in the automotive business got itself into,,,and the stink is only getting worse....they are the canary in the mine. BMW motorrad take heed.

last but not least i cut and pasted from the fried bearing thread for your perusal..it applies to this scenario as well.

Once,again,,,for your and every ones sake..PLEASE,,,,for starters report these incidents to your dealer,,,I'm not a terrible big fan of recalls provided the manufacturer :

1,,steps up to the pump and shares what's going on with his product

2,,notifies his clients promptly
3,,tells them what to do,,ie ''DO NOT RIDE YOUR Motorcycle till we put the replacement parts in'',,,, or the appropriate warning/remedy
4,,fixes it ASAP with the least inconvenience/cost on the customers part

Here's my take on this whole issue,,,,

1,,i am convinced that you and me as consumers can appreciate that mistakes could be made in the millions of steps needed to get the products we buy exactly like the designers envisioned them,,,whether BWOE it's a material speced wrong or a machinist removing too little or too much off an item,,,

2,,i believe we would much rather have the manufacturer have the cajones to inform the rest of us of the problem after being aware of it,,,,and tell us what he intends to do to correct it,,, as well as the risk factor involved in continuing to use this product with the defect.
BWOE,,,"we've experienced riders complaining that their front axle is snapping,,PLEASE cease and desist from riding your motorcycle immediately!!!,,continuing to do so could result in a crash that could kill or injure you and others!!!!,,,make arrangements with your dealer to have it checked and repaired/replaced with an improved axle....it can be readily identified by this mark,,,there is no cost for parts and/or repair/replacement etc,etc

3,,i KNOW that i want to TRUST my manufacturer to have my safety be a higher concern than revenue losses or loss of image,,,being in a consistent state of denial is not conducive to developing trust and confidence amongst the believers in the marque when we bring our problems and complaints to the service department,,,and more often than not be greeted with the worn out mantra 'What problem????,,,there is no problem!!'

4,,i also know of the tremendo
us pressure that manufacturers are under when dealing with societies like ours that have certain elements waiting in the wings to capitalize on their mistake,,,i've written about it before and i'll say it again,,,,the pressure of litigation and being drawn into court scares the hell out of most of us and them....one is tempted then to weigh the cost of loss in revenues and your reputation against the costs of litgation or a recall

5,,i am convinced that in the long run we will want to be repeat customers of dealers and manufacturers that play it straight with us,,,that listen to our concerns,, and CREDIBILITY is one of our biggest concerns

6,,,i am convinced that the costs will be far greater should someone get injured or killed due to the recalcitrance of informing us of defects ,,,,the legal beagles are waiting in the wings for these kind of scenarios and our juries are especially benevolent when they hear that a manufacturer had the info and knowingly pretended all was well,,,then there is always the karmic debt that is incurred.....like the tobacco industry,,,3-mile island,,and now the toyota scandal,,,,,hmmmnnn we'll see how this plays out


woody
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:43 AM   #686
Chop Chop
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Well said Woody
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:47 AM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bmwfan
Hey Joel, back away from the kool-aid!!! I just got off the phone today with New Jersey. You know, BMW Mottorad. They stated POINT BLANK that they have a small staff of individuals who do EXACTLY that, tour the forums.

Check the recall thread for my info on that.

Joel, you are one person with valuable input but you are misguided about some things here and, IMO, have had your brain too hard wired to BMW's corporate party line to be truly objective in these matters. You can call me any name under the sun but my conversation today and my dealings with corporate over the last month plus show that there are things going on at corporate that you haven't a clue about. I feel very fortunate to have two reps and two direct phone numbers that get me past all the gatekeepers to a real live person that seems to hold some ability and authority to make some things happen through my dealer that no amount of effort has been able to do up to this point.

They've been able to resolve all my K1300GT issues and are now hard at work at getting my two F bike issues resolved. I like this venue in addition to utilizing the proper chain through the dealer network. It appears as though it has worked for me quite well so I would encourage all of us with BMWs and issues to continue to pressure our dealers and correspond with coprorate and post on these forums. It works!
Wow, not sure what said to deserve that 1bmwfan, but i'm going to give you your wish for my own reasons.

This has nothing to do with you Tmex, Johngil, DolphinJohn, IndyUnlimited or 99% of the others on this forum. I wish 99% of you well 99% of the time lol, but I just woke up to an epiphany! I don't enjoy this forum any more.

ride reports are cool as is the missouri forum and jomama but I lack the discipline to ignore the beasts forum which I find to have enough open hostility to all manufactures to be a downer.

I don't have most the answers and some that I do posses and have posted about are in no way positive to BMW.

What I do like is waiting to pass judgment or find fault with folks that aren't even represented here until the facts are in.

Hypothesizing is all well and good and worthwhile but open hostility to the work products of ANY manufacture or individual prematurely really bugs me.

Most often this isn't the case here but it happens enough for me to be bothered and I find it negates the many wonderful things about this forum.

I have never had the small business good / large business bad, large government good / small government bad ideology, but it seems to be the direction the world is heading.

In any case, though I have enjoyed most of my interaction on this forum, I can't get past what I really dislike.

Wish you all well.

Over and out and terminated lol

Happy trails, hope to see everyone on the roads, in the dealership, and on the trails

Edit: Not quite over and out: I see a bunch of edit options in the control panel but no terminate account button. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

P.S. Pack Mule and many many others. An email address should appear on Gateway BMW's web site for me any time. I am always fascinated by technical issues or enjoy just shooting the breeze. I'm solely trying to avoid a few "natteing neebobs of negativity" (love that quote, not sure where it's from)

Maybe in a year or two if I get over my desire to defend those not present I will re subscribe. ADV remains an awesome place, just not for me at this time.

Anyway, how do I kill this account?
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:20 AM   #688
Chop Chop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Long story short, we're going .


If you ride outside of what this bike was intended for:

then get the Ralle-Moto brace and torque properly.


If you ride within what this bike was intended for:

just torque properly.
Perhaps a quick look a some of the marketing photos BMW has of this bike. At least one has the bike jumping. Another would not be what I would call sedate riding.

I love the bike and intended to ride it for what I bought it for, adventure riding. That to me means sand, rocky trails, washouts, the occassional jump and smoothe gravel roads pretty much all terrain types I can find. This is the adventure, the experience of getting to a destination.

I am currently upgrading both ends of the suspension. Knowing there may be an issue with the upper shock bolt allows me to monitor the situation. It will not however change my riding style. Otherwise why buy the bike.

Perhaps BMW underestimated the success (perceived or real) and type of riding that some riders would undertake on the F800GS.

I would hope however that BMW would look into/investigate this issue and provide a suitable remedy if required.

As an aside, I have buckled rims, and bottomed out a 1200GS more than I would have liked. But didn't regret buying it for one moment.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but rant over.
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:02 AM   #689
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Woody, excellent info.

One thing I would add here since I have received several emails asking for it.

In order to get to the point that I am currently with regard to direct access to BMW Motorrad, NJ via two direct phone numbers, I went through a thorough, diligent, and documented path of dealings with my dealership. After working through them and with them on many, many occasions I solicited their support in order to step things up to the next level. I wrote a letter outlining my issues, my concerns, and some of the steps I had taken. I then had my dealer act as my advocate and be the one to actually forward my letter to corporate. It worked!

To come to me, or anyone else, and just ask for the direct line is really counter productive, IMO. It is very clearly spelled out in the manuals we all get to work through your dealership on your issues. Should this fail then and only then should the issue be moved up the chain.

By working through the system in a systematic, unrelenting, and well documented fashion I feel that my issues are being addressed. This doesn't take anything away from my feelings and those of others that we should not have to deal with the myriad of issues that point toward poor design, under development of a product, and marketing pressure to bring a product to market that isn't ready. These issues are not model specific. They are rampant through the marque, IMO. I have seen it with my K13GT, the S1000RR is already seeing it, we have it here with the F bikes, etc., and we all know about the butter rims and fragile final drives.

That being said, I love my BMWs........when they work. I plan to continue to ride them after they are fixed. My K13 appears to now be flawless. I am rapidly gaining my confidence in the bike back. It is too bad it took over a year. My two F bikes are not quite there but now appear to be on their way. Again, after over a year. I expect them to be fixed within the next month or so, parts ordering dependent.

I feel that, and I have said it many times, each of us owe it to work the system from bottom up. It does no good to try and go straight to the top. Get your dealer to do their part and get them, when they can't resolve your concerns, to be your advocate as you push upward through the chain of resolution.

Even after having gone through all the steps, and having it well documented in the letter I wrote, corporate still asked, right away, what I had done through my dealership to resolve these issues. They reiterated several times that my dealer would have to resolve my issues in the end, even after having gotten to those at corporate who were clearly in a position of ability and authority to make it happen. I get that.

Be your own advocate. Use your dealer, no matter how crappy you may think they are, document, document, document, be firm but fair, and gain them as your advocate if possible.

In the future, if/when some other problem crops up such as my own bent shock bolt or a bearing failure, I will still start at the bottom and work through my dealer. It wouldn't be fair or proper to just pick up the phone and call my corporate contacts and cry wolf if I haven't gone through the steps to deal with it locally first.

For this reason, I won't provide my contact information at corporate. It serves no purpose to anyone who hasn't gone through the steps to allow corporate involvement. It also, IMO, will only alienate them from us all in the future.

Even I was very doubtful in my belief that BMW corporate would ever deal with me such as they are now. However, after having gone through the steps to get to this point, I have regained my confidence that they do want to resolve the issues each of us has with our bikes. That is, after using the dealer network first.
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:58 AM   #690
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Friends. As johngil said, we're all on the same team here. We all spent a good deal of money for a bike that is supposed to be able to be taken into rough situations and come out with flying colors on the other side. Let's not direct our frustrations with the product at each other. Instead let's focus that energy on finding a solution, even if that includes every last one of us putting in a call to BMW Motorrad and letting them know about the issue, this thread, and how we feel about it. You'd be suprised at what can get done with a few phone calls and requesting to speak to some one in upper management. When I had my clutch failure which tore the inside of my engine apart, they tried to give me the run around and were dragging their feet. After a few calls to headquarters and speaking to some "higher-ups" it was agreed upon that my issue would be resolved within 2-3 weeks. My point here is that we're good people (I think ) and we all want the same outcome: resolve. So instead of focusing our frustrations at each other in a negative manner, let's use that energy in a positive way to somehow get some resolve to this issue. Which of course may take some action outside of posting on this forum: contacting your dealer. Contacting BMW headquarters in NJ. Maybe even an international call to BMW Munich. Let's work together on this, and we'll be doing this in no time:
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