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Old 08-13-2009, 10:49 AM   #31
WoodWorks
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Jeez, do you really need us to explain it to you, tmex? The ABS is supposed to be turned OFF when you're riding in dirt. So your graph is irrelevant. And emergency braking in the wet is the one time that I really appreciate having ABS, but I'm glad that it's back there at all times. As for the extra weight, as someone else here also pointed out, I've added about ten times the weight of the ABS in farkles already. So it's not like forgoing the ABS is going to suddenly transform the bike's handling. And how much do those Jesse bags of yours weigh, anyway?

Hey, you don't want ABS? Fine. Whatever. But don't try to justify your decision by pretending to know more about it than the rest of us. Because clearly, by trying to obfuscate the issue, you've tipped your hand.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Jeez, do you really need us to explain it to you, tmex? The ABS is supposed to be turned OFF when you're riding in dirt. So your graph is irrelevant. And emergency braking in the wet is the one time that I really appreciate having ABS, but I'm glad that it's back there at all times. As for the extra weight, as someone else here also pointed out, I've added about ten times the weight of the ABS in farkles already. So it's not like forgoing the ABS is going to suddenly transform the bike's handling. And how much do those Jesse bags of yours weigh, anyway?

Hey, you don't want ABS? Fine. Whatever. But don't try to justify your decision by pretending to know more about it than the rest of us. Because clearly, by trying to obfuscate the issue, you've tipped your hand.

David
Tipped my hand? I'm not playing a game here, and I am not pretending to know more than you. I made a deliberate decision based on hard facts. I am simply trying to provide an alternative, and I think correct, point of view relative to ABS. Why do you think accident statistics for four wheeled vehicles have actually shown an increase in severity (including far more roll-over incidents) since the introduction of ABS? The marketing people have concluded that it must be because people are driving faster, and these same marketing people are now peddling ESC to help prevent the roll-overs resulting from the ABS physics.

Read this Woody. Ducati just put ABS on the ST4 and guess what - it takes longer to stop. Nonetheless, the testers loved it citing the singular conditions under which it would be better.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...abs/index.html
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:33 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
Ducati just put ABS on the ST4 and guess what - it takes longer to stop.
Repeat after me: "AntiLOCK Braking Systems are designed to prevent lockup so the operator (car or motorcycle) can retain directional control."

It's not about stopping distance. Never has been.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:37 AM   #34
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
...and I am not pretending to know more than you.
Really? I quote from your previous post:

Quote:
People extolling the virtues of ABS generally do not know what they are talking about.
I believe that I could be accused of being someone who has extolled ABS's virtues.

Quote:
I made a deliberate decision based on hard facts.
Funny, so did I.

Quote:
Why do you think accident statistics for four wheeled vehicles have actually shown an increase in severity (including far more roll-over incidents) since the introduction of ABS? The marketing people have concluded that it must be because people are driving faster, and these same marketing people are now peddling ESC to help prevent the roll-overs resulting from the ABS physics.
Wow, so many unsupported conclusions there, I don't even know where to start. But if you have any proof that the increase in severity of accidents has any relationship to the use of ABS, I'm eager to see it.

Quote:
Read this Woody. Ducati just put ABS on the ST4 and guess what - it takes longer to stop. Nonetheless, the testers loved it citing the singular conditions under which it would be better.
OK, I read it. Thanks for that. But I couldn't help noticing that you excised the word "slightly" from in front of "longer to stop." And I'd be willing to bet that for anyone other than an expert rider, the results would be reversed.

But as I said earlier, tmex, if you feel better not having ABS, hey, knock yourself out. I'm certainly not trying to convince you to buy it. But your attempt to prove that it's all some marketing ploy, and a hazardous one at that, isn't standing up to much scrutiny.

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Old 08-13-2009, 12:05 PM   #35
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Woody, the increased roll-over stats are all over the internet, just Google it. Also all over the internet is the tendency for motorcycle ABS to let go or "freewheel" over bumps, especially stutter bumps (the F800 has exhibited this tendency - check over at the F800 riders forum for the outrage).

I am replying to the OP's question, and I stand by my statement that most people don't bother to find out the facts before extolling the virtue of ABS. In fact, very few people on this forum even understand how motorcyle ABS works, most likely you are among them. I was involved in a rather hysterical thread in the GSPOT forum on how motorcycle ABS works not too long ago - not pretty. Instead pages are filled with anecdotal tales of how ABS saved me.

If you are happy with your ABS, and you apparently are, then leave it at that. You made your opinions known before I posted, I simply disagree with you. You don't have to explain your decision to anyone. Accusing me of leaving out the word "slightly" is a very cheap shot. I referenced the full article so no one should feel the least bit misled.

I also stand by my statement that the facts show that the ONLY time ABS shortens stopping distance is in the wet. In all other conditions stopping distance is increased. If loss of control in dry conditions is an issue, then I would suggest improving your riding skills, and not relying on an ECU to bail you out.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:57 PM   #36
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20% of motorcycle accidents are caused by a locked front wheel. Over 90% of these are eliminated with ABS.

It's a system designed specifically to deal two items - 1) Panic Braking, and 2) Adverse conditions braking. It's NOT designed to decrease your stopping distances. Period. In instances where stopping distances are not enough, your speed is reduced and fatalities, damage, and injury are significantly less.


Would I spend the $900 and add 5 lbs to my bike for a virtually transparent way to reduce or eliminate a devastating accident caused by panic or adverse conditions braking and give me peace of mind about a washout? Yes.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:15 PM   #37
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Well, clearly, since according to you I'm "most likely" one of those who knows next to nothing about how ABS works, you should take this with a measure of salt. But I believe that it's the HCU (Hydraulic Control Unit), tmex, not the ECU, that controls the ABS.

Gosh, I guess I'm not such an ignoramus after all! Imagine my relief.

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Old 08-13-2009, 01:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F800 Rob
20% of motorcycle accidents are caused by a locked front wheel. Over 90% of these are eliminated with ABS.

It's a system designed specifically to deal two items - 1) Panic Braking, and 2) Adverse conditions braking. It's NOT designed to decrease your stopping distances. Period. In instances where stopping distances are not enough, your speed is reduced and fatalities, damage, and injury are significantly less.


Would I spend the $900 and add 5 lbs to my bike for a virtually transparent way to reduce or eliminate a devastating accident caused by panic or adverse conditions braking and give me peace of mind about a washout? Yes.
Thank you, Rob, I was going to type almost the same text!

All our four present BMW bikes, mine and the wife's, have ABS. Turn it off for dirt ride - that's it. But frankly speaking, you need it off only for complecated maneuvering on downhills loose gravel or sand.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by easyman05
. But frankly speaking, you need it off only for complecated maneuvering on downhills loose gravel or sand.
+1
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easyman05
Thank you, Rob, I was going to type almost the same text!

All our four present BMW bikes, mine and the wife's, have ABS. Turn it off for dirt ride - that's it. But frankly speaking, you need it off only for complecated maneuvering on downhills loose gravel or sand.
You forgot about stopping quickly, brake sliding turns, and going down ANY dirt hill complicated or not.

ECU is generic for any type of Electronic Control Unit which the ABS system certainly has. HCU is just another Woody cheap shot lending nothing to the argument other than his own self-agrandisement.

Actually, what annoys me most about ABS is the fact that the automotive marketing folks fooled our governement into mandating that all cars sold in this country be equipped with ABS. Here is a group of people with a highly vested interest choreographing tests and data to support their ability to extract more money from the public while actually (as the data shows http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/kil...er-risk-by-51/) increasing the severity of accidents. Speaking of data, could you point me to a reference which shows that 20% of all motorcycle accidents are caused by front brake lock-up and the 90% of these cound be avoided with ABS Easyman?

My GF recently got her first real adventure bike, a G650GS. After some debate we did opt for the ABS because she is still a novice rider, and could benefit from the added forgiveness such a system provides. BTW, she did not want ABS since her CRF230L did not have it and she put 8,000 miles of dualsport riding on that thing. It was my encouragement.
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Old 08-13-2009, 02:16 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
Why would any reasonable person decide to add weight, cost, and complexity to deal with a singularity - being able to stop slightly faster in the rain?

You are traveling in the left lane of a two lane suburban paved road. It's dry.
In the right lane beside you is a pickup truck... driver on a cell phone.
Your lane is pretty much clear ahead.
Pickup truck driver suddenly notices that the last entrance to the shopping mall he desperately wants to be at is rapidly approaching ... on his left.
Pickup truck driver mashes gas pedal pulling ahead of you.
You think he's just taking off.
Without using his indicator, pickup truck driver pulls into your lane and hits the brakes as several cars coming in the opposite direction prevent him from completing the turn into the shopping mall.
You need to scrub off serious speed. You grab a big hunk of front brake. You normally wouldn't be hitting the rear brake pedal but holy crap ... you need as much help as you can get. As all this is taking place in fractions of a second and as you hear the first sounds of your front tire turning to liquid, it occurs to you that maybe, just maybe, a heavy push on the right bar will get you around the back end of that pickup truck instead of into it.
Problem is, that front wheel of yours is no longer turning and pushing on that right bar isn't going to do much of anything.
Now if it were me, well I might actually benefit from having my abs in a situation like that. You... well... who knows maybe you would never have got yourself in that situation to begin with. Me ... abs... i have a chance of
not being laid out in the back of the pickup with the bags of fertilizer and and the golden lab... without the abs... i doubt it. I'm just sayin...
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:13 PM   #42
tmex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrytori
You are traveling in the left lane of a two lane suburban paved road. It's dry.
In the right lane beside you is a pickup truck... driver on a cell phone.
Your lane is pretty much clear ahead.
Pickup truck driver suddenly notices that the last entrance to the shopping mall he desperately wants to be at is rapidly approaching ... on his left.
Pickup truck driver mashes gas pedal pulling ahead of you.
You think he's just taking off.
Without using his indicator, pickup truck driver pulls into your lane and hits the brakes as several cars coming in the opposite direction prevent him from completing the turn into the shopping mall.
You need to scrub off serious speed. You grab a big hunk of front brake. You normally wouldn't be hitting the rear brake pedal but holy crap ... you need as much help as you can get. As all this is taking place in fractions of a second and as you hear the first sounds of your front tire turning to liquid, it occurs to you that maybe, just maybe, a heavy push on the right bar will get you around the back end of that pickup truck instead of into it.
Problem is, that front wheel of yours is no longer turning and pushing on that right bar isn't going to do much of anything.
Now if it were me, well I might actually benefit from having my abs in a situation like that. You... well... who knows maybe you would never have got yourself in that situation to begin with. Me ... abs... i have a chance of
not being laid out in the back of the pickup with the bags of fertilizer and and the golden lab... without the abs... i doubt it. I'm just sayin...
Odly Tori, the situation you described above is exactly why ABS equipped four wheeled vehicles do experience more roll overs. It is instinctive to steer away from the perceived point of impact. In a non-ABS vehicle the brakes are probably locked up for reasons you describe above and the vehicle merely skids in the direction of travel or perhaps skids a little sideways. With ABS the driver is allowed to make the high G turn because ABS has kept the wheels from locking. The result is a roll over because the force generated by the turn has no place to be dissipated except along the roll over axis of the vehicle. Of course, ESC will fix this (at additional cost). The ABS designers simply did not anticipate this problem initially or ABS would have been coupled with ESC from the get-go. On the bike you can do the usual lean angle compensation and life (no pun intended) goes on.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by tmex
Odly Tori, the situation you described above is exactly why ABS equipped four wheeled vehicles do experience more roll overs.
tmex, I gotta say, you have the craziest conspiracy theory I've read in a long time.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:38 PM   #44
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tmex, I gotta say, you have the craziest conspiracy theory I've read in a long time.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
Odly Tori, the situation you described above is exactly why ABS equipped four wheeled vehicles do experience more roll overs. It is instinctive to steer away from the perceived point of impact. In a non-ABS vehicle the brakes are probably locked up for reasons you describe above and the vehicle merely skids in the direction of travel or perhaps skids a little sideways. With ABS the driver is allowed to make the high G turn because ABS has kept the wheels from locking. The result is a roll over because the force generated by the turn has no place to be dissipated except along the roll over axis of the vehicle. Of course, ESC will fix this (at additional cost). The ABS designers simply did not anticipate this problem initially or ABS would have been coupled with ESC from the get-go. On the bike you can do the usual lean angle compensation and life (no pun intended) goes on.
Actually this is not entirely true. The kind of vehicle plays a SIGNIFICANT role in this equation. If you drive a regular car your chance of roll over is a fraction of the one if you drive an SUV or PickUp Truck. There is as well a large amount of data on the internet to that effect. The fact that peopke today opt for those top heavy vehicles is the major contributor to roll over accidents - not the fact that ABS is standard equipment today. Roll over tests (i.e. in Sweden) are done WITHOUT ANY BREAKING and proove that ABS has no impact on that. If you lock up your wheels in a car you loose steering - guess what happens if you try to turn and release the breaks in that situation?

I have made an offer several times but have yet to find anyone willing to go for this test:

I decide on a public road where we will test ABS vs non-ABS real world usability to avoid accidents or bike rider separation. You get one - and only one chance - for the test. I will throw an object into the road at a time of my liking on an unknown position to the riders and whoever stops quicker wins. Both riders must travel at the same speed for this test. The one who drops the bikes is automatically the looser.

I won't disclose the road before the test but I can say it will be paved and the test will only be done in dry conditions so that the non-ABS rider can demonstrate his best skills.

Reiner
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