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Old 10-06-2010, 12:29 PM   #46
Wallowa
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Significantly Smaller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by koutadog
Not sure about clearance offroad as it hasnt been dirty, in a few weeks. It is very close. Would definitely be no good in mud.

Gives it a bit of hot rod look though with the guard so low.

Tyre size is 90/90-21 TKC80


Do you feel the distance to the brace is large enough for off road?

In your experience is this new size significantly smaller than 110/80-19" stock tire?

Thanks! I am riding the line on this......since I only ride off road the cost VS benefit is the determing issue..what really works, what really needs to be replaced and for what gains off road...do appreciate your input.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:16 PM   #47
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try these links

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
[/color]

Do you feel the distance to the brace is large enough for off road?

In your experience is this new size significantly smaller than 110/80-19" stock tire?

Thanks! I am riding the line on this......since I only ride off road the cost VS benefit is the determing issue..what really works, what really needs to be replaced and for what gains off road...do appreciate your input.
Have a read of these links, especially the first by Pilbara.
I kept denting my cast wheels so this my reason for buying wheels. I got the 21 as it would make it better offroad.

If it gets muddy I will remove the mud guard.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311887

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594117

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592717
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:36 PM   #48
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I wish the GS came with an 18 inch front wheel rather than the 19 it comes with stock. The the new Ducati multi 1200 carries 17 inch front rubber for a reason and it'll smoke a gs on the road. I know cause I have owned the 1200gs and I own now the 1200 duc. To be honest I think the duc is better on gravel with the pirellis than the gs with tourances. If your running the 21 I would definitely install a high quality damper. If your running the 21 your running knobbies no doubt and with or without a damper your asking for a wicked tank slapper one day. Less so with the damper though. Just me but if I want to go offroad I like a bike with a 21 inch wheel that will rage, my CRF450, not a 500# leg breaker. The 1200gs offroad feels like peddling a tricycle through mud.
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Old 10-15-2010, 09:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Dog Chapman[COLOR=Yellow
]I wish the GS came with an 18 inch front wheel rather than the 19 it comes with stock.[/color]


no problem ,,,,the 2.5 x 18''rim from the cruiser can be installed on the front of any GS

The the new Ducati multi 1200 carries 17 inch front rubber for a reason and it'll smoke a gs on the road. I know cause I have owned the 1200gs and I own now the 1200 duc. To be honest I think the duc is better on gravel with the pirellis than the gs with tourances. If your running the 21 I would definitely install a high quality damper.

let me clarify ,,,i'm with ya on adding a dampener ,NOT because it's a21 wheel but because they work wonders on any front wheel you are running

If your running the 21 your running knobbies no doubt and with or without a damper your asking for a wicked tank slapper one day. Less so with the damper though. Just me but if I want to go offroad I like a bike with a 21 inch wheel that will rage, my CRF450, not a 500# leg breaker. The 1200gs offroad feels like peddling a tricycle through mud.

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Old 10-16-2010, 04:40 AM   #50
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damper for 21?

Woody
Are you recommending that a damper should be fittted to all the GS's that have the 21" conversion?
I havent seen this recommendation in past threads.
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:53 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koutadog
Not sure about clearance offroad as it hasnt been dirty, in a few weeks. It is very close. Would definitely be no good in mud.

Gives it a bit of hot rod look though with the guard so low.

Tyre size is 90/90-21 TKC80
At highway speeds the front tire will expand and meet the fender. I have the 90/90-21 TKC's as well. The thing about running the 21 without a fender - off-road - is that mud will introduce itself to your helmet area directly up past the instrument cluster. Lots of mud. Some sticks and shit too.

Coming off a muddy trail onto a connector road will have chunks of mud flying out in front of you just waiting for you to catch up.
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:20 AM   #52
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The main reason that a bigger wheel is better off-road has to do with the forces which result from the wheel rolling over an object on the trail.

A there are several forces (a vectoring) whic result, but the main two force components are up and back.

A larger wheel will roll over the obstacle easier because the force component up is greater than the force component back, which is minimized.

here's a sketch my 8 year old niece did in MS paint for you:



Perhaps the best improvement, though, if you're going to go offroad, is the selection of tires available to you. No longer is it Karoos and TKCs only. It's any DS tire (on non-dual sport tire if you will) that'll fit a 21" front.

As for the front fender, I already get a ton of terrain flung at me on the 1150 with a beak. It flings up into the air and, as KLOC said, waits for you to smash into it. And not just mud, but sand, black dirt, rocks. The first time I rode for hours on dirt I was in back of an F650, and I though, "holy shit, this woman's TKCs are tossing a ton of shit my way" because I was getting loads of sand and gravel in my mouth, helmet, etc. So I passed her. I then realized that it was not coming from her rear tire but my front tire. I don't have a 21" and I still have my fender. I can't imagine the load of shit you'll be facing without a fender.
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Old 10-16-2010, 08:03 AM   #53
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to dampen or not to dampen....

Quote:
Originally Posted by koutadog
Woody
Are you recommending that a damper should be fittted to all the GS's that have the 21" conversion?
I havent seen this recommendation in past threads.
from my experience at on and off road-racing ,,,i find the advantages of a steering dampener far outweigh the expense or weight....

just like the 21'' wheel is a better tool for the job off-roading/single tracking/round the world on rotten roads adventure rider,,,as is evidenced by the enhanced stability/driveability in the rough so too,,,the addition of a steering damper raises the bar another notch

if you all have noticed,,,a consistent corner stone of dealing with you all is raising the question of where and how hard you will be riding and then steering you to a better tool for the job,,the 21'' wheel is better off-road,,,the addition of a steering damper works in all situations

link,,,
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596803


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Old 10-16-2010, 08:46 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySands
The main reason that a bigger wheel is better off-road has to do with the forces which result from the wheel rolling over an object on the trail.

A there are several forces (a vectoring) whic result, but the main two force components are up and back.

A larger wheel will roll over the obstacle easier because the force component up is greater than the force component back, which is minimized.

here's a sketch my 8 year old niece did in MS paint for you:



Perhaps the best improvement, though, if you're going to go offroad, is the selection of tires available to you. No longer is it Karoos and TKCs only. It's any DS tire (on non-dual sport tire if you will) that'll fit a 21" front.
i'd re-word that and say that it is one of the benefits of having dirt oriented size rims/wheels,,this holds true for the rear too,,a 2.5x18 gives ya the larger rolling diameter as well as broader knobby tire selection

As for the front fender, I already get a ton of terrain flung at me on the 1150 with a beak. It flings up into the air and, as KLOC said, waits for you to smash into it. And not just mud, but sand, black dirt, rocks. The first time I rode for hours on dirt I was in back of an F650, and I though, "holy shit, this woman's TKCs are tossing a ton of shit my way" because I was getting loads of sand and gravel in my mouth, helmet, etc. So I passed her. I then realized that it was not coming from her rear tire but my front tire. I don't have a 21" and I still have my fender. I can't imagine the load of shit you'll be facing without a fender.
[KLOC....At highway speeds the front tire will expand and meet the fender. I have the 90/90-21 TKC's as well. The thing about running the 21 without a fender - off-road - is that mud will introduce itself to your helmet area directly up past the instrument cluster. Lots of mud. Some sticks and shit too.

Coming off a muddy trail onto a connector road will have chunks of mud flying out in front of you just waiting for you to catch up.[quote]



well i run a 21/18 combo on my r1200gs without lower fender,,,and outside of thin mist coming up between tank and front end doing highway speeds in the rain have not encountered the dirt issues you are talking about....i'm working on the prototype anti-mister a form fitting piece of foam that ya just have to pop in the space between the tank and steering head

FYI,,there is at least 3/8''/10mm clearance between the lower fender and tire,,,i left the lower fender on with absolutely no clearance problems in any conditions save for going through 'gumbo mud',,,the kind that just keeps growing like a snowball.....and i'm working on a fender that will install in the same place as the oem one and have a close fitting 'snowplow' on the back side that will scrape the mud off your tire and fling it out to the left and right....whaddaya think of that???

can ya visualize no longer worrying about mud build-up???..i can!

OBTW...my testing included hundreds of miles cruising at 80-100mph on dunlop paris /dakar D606s running 34psi


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Old 10-16-2010, 09:12 AM   #55
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alternatives to oem tubeless X-lace 21''rims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visian
yes. i was able to buy an HP2 supermoto hub, i am just trying not to spend $400 for the rim.
FYI..your Sumo hub can be convetionally or Superlaced laced to a std excel 1.85x21 rim circa $179 in silver,,heavy duty ss spokes $120 plus lace n true labor..you'd hav ewhat ya need for circa $400

w
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Old 10-16-2010, 10:59 AM   #56
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a few more thoughts regarding this set-up..and others...

ok all you guys,,,,,

i just re-read this entire thread,,,,

perhaps i can assuage your 21'' conversion worries and concerns,,,,so one at a time:

ABS....works just fine and ya can always turn it off in the dirt

steering geometry....
stock 17 rear and 21 front:,,,,,it raise front circa 3/4''/19mm which will increase trail slightly hence slow down steering a tiny bit,,which to me seems a plus in the dirt and not that big a deal in the pavement because i take the corners a tad slower on the slab anyways with this knobby set-up
i noticed a bunch of solutions being bandied about regarding raising rear end,,,well they do have an adjustable torque arm that would take care of that in a pinch,,but why???

FYI,,,personally,,,i have two solutions with caveats...
1,,,for all-around main emphasis on dirt/offroad rideability and tire selection i opted for a 2.5x18 rear rim running 140/80x18 knobbies,,WOW is all i can say for sheer dirt riding fun,,,this setup essentially keeps oem geometry intact,,,best bang for tires that get the job done and that includes availability for going round the world in strange places ,,read your ride reports from the guys that go to strange places 19/17 is not that readily available
....the downside for me is/was the seat height is now a circa 3/4-1'' taller and the larger rear wheel gives taller gearing[which in 95% of the riding was a non issue....in the Rockies on many of the boulder strewn roads on steep pitches like going over Mosquito Pass last year,, i longed to be able to touch the ground and have the lower gearing of the oem rear wheel,,,hence

2,,solution was reverting to oem rear wheel size,,,i opted to build a narrower 3.5x17 running oem 150/70x17tire sizes....gained some ground on my inseam as well as easier slow rideability,,,,Bonus was the more rounded tire profile gives better bite in the dirt with no detriments on the slab....i sealed mine for tubeless because i'm essentially a lazy FF

the mud issue...
IMHO,,,the wunderlich offering is certainly a viable option but at what expense...to me there has to be a genuine cost benefit ratio,,,it has to pass a technical/aesthetic litmus test...it certainly has the bling covered,,,raising the front fender circa 2'' will certainly allow certain kinds of mud to pass and i can assure you it won't cut the muster here in colorado's gumbo....this sh-- bogs down dang near anything it comes in contact with,,,the mud build-up on the sides and in between the fork legs locks up the wheels even on any dirt/MX bike sporting the tallest fenders

in a previous post i addressed my latest..kill 2 birds with one stone mud-scrapper front fender to deal with the mud/water/debris slinging/clogging issues

tubeless or tubetype???
there are so many posts on this subject...with pros and cons for each way,,,relax there are solutions and wheels available to satisfy your personal preference....

what ya need to know is that the only genuine tubeless solution is going with an oem 1.85x21 X-lace rim laced up to GS hub...the Tubliss system is for race off-road use only and the only available 21 rim available with a safety bead that could be sealed is a 2.15x21 SUN..too wide and too soft for what we need

wheel types available:
the Wunderlich 21 is built with all oem components is tubeless and weighs circa 3-4lbs more than the alternative Touratech or WWW Superlites....the WWW version can be made to any preference in hub or rim color schemes can also be Superlaced with extra beefy 8g ss spokes n nipples for the serious weight laden troopies,,,i think it is overkill but hey we can give ya what ya want

the other alternative is lacing up standard tube-type rims onto your stock hubs ....there are various techniques out there like drilling out nipples that fit your hub and threading skinny spokes through them to buchanans method of threading both ends of the spoke to have a nipple on both ends or my method of designing a special 4gx.175g butted Monzter spoke the size of the oem nipple

steering dampener
Folks PLEASE read this:'nice to have,,,albeit not necessary',,,, just using the 21'' will vastly improve the handling over the 19'' on either GS or GSAs..... the addition of a steering dampeners adds another dimension in minimizing the twitchy handling jitters whether using 17/18/19 or 21'' wheels up front,,,.

there's something to be said about enhancing the ride experience,,,, Scott,,,Hyperpro and Ralley- moto are available, the latter although twice as expensive offers far more versatility for different ride conditions ,,is easily tunable[controls are right in font of you on steering head] and is a 3'' bar riser at the same time

well there ya have it,,i tried to synthesize your concerns with your and my feedback

woody



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Old 10-16-2010, 10:59 AM   #57
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Quote:
since I only ride off road ...do appreciate your input
Some input. You only ride off road. Why in the world are you riding a five hundred pound bike. My input would be sell the GS and buy a bike that came with a 21 inch wheel like an off road bike. I suggest a CRF450
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Old 10-16-2010, 11:08 AM   #58
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there is DIFFERENCE!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Dog Chapman
Some input. You only ride off road. Why in the world are you riding a five hundred pound bike. My input would be sell the GS and buy a bike that came with a 21 inch wheel like an off road bike. I suggest a CRF450

FYI,,,i ride everywhere!!!!,,,got one of those too and truth be told,,there's nothing like standing on the footpegs of my r1200gs doing 60 on a curvy fireroad and wacking the throttle and instantly roosting the ass end and later heading out on the open road and loaf along at a ton,,,,ya can stop by the shop and borrow mine
w
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Old 10-16-2010, 11:13 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
got one of those too and truth be told,,there's nothing like standing on the footpegs of my r1200gs doing 60 on a curvy fireroad and wacking the throttle and roosting the assend and then heading out on the open road and loaf along at a ton,,,,ya can stop by the shop and borrow mine
w
I have had a 1200gs and it's one of the best bikes in the world, but the fellow said he only rides his off road. Off road only. Why use a GS for that? A man can do as he pleases I understand that, and it's the only reason I could see a GS as an off road only ride.
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Old 10-16-2010, 11:36 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Dog Chapman
I have had a 1200gs and it's one of the best bikes in the world, but the fellow said he only rides his off road. Off road only. Why use a GS for that? A man can do as he pleases I understand that, and it's the only reason I could see a GS as an off road only ride.
sorry,,i didn't catch that and...
hey i'm with ya,,i wouldn't want a gs as my only off road bike,,especially if i have to pick it up,,,cripe,,,i ended up buying apair of KLR 650's as supplementary dual sports ,cuz truth be told a fully loaded GS is NO fun to drop and pick-up in the middle of anywhere...

those 2 characters who took their GSs around the world,,,jeesh, not like that,,FYI ,,,IMHO,,,so many of their incessant dropping their bikes could have been averted with the addition of 21''/steering dampening,,guess they don't chime in on ADVrider

...and i just re-read your post and commentary..i liked ''The 1200gs offroad feels like peddling a tricycle through mud.''...and isn't that what they did????..

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