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Old 08-19-2009, 12:32 PM   #16
tmex
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The first link below compares ABS versus non-ABS and the results are basically mixed. Also included are CBS (basically linked braking results) sometimes referred to as LBS. Unfortunately this test does not address the experience of the riders doing the testing.

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngDistance.pdf

This link is from our very own ibmwr group. Please go to the results tables which show that experienced riders (racers and road riders) stop faster without ABS. The novice results are indeed horrible without ABS. LBS results are also included in this reference.

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

What none of the references address are the situations where ABS equipped bikes basically "freewheel". Typically a bumpy road surface or a road surface with some sand on it will produce this phenomena. It has received much discussion in the F800.org forum so I won't repeat it here.

At the end of the day, the choice of ABS or non-ABS should be an informed decision by the purchaser. Obviously, a large number of my brethren here have opted for ABS and I certainly respect their decision, but more importantly I respect their right to make a decision.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:16 PM   #17
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Abs

Yes I saw that was one of their recommendations. It might be that as scientists and not enthusiast it seems logical to them. I would be very interested to see your data. Keeping an open mind as I get older is one of my projects. ABS on bikes is a topic I have been following closely since the early BMW and FJ days and haven't seen much anti-ABS data.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
It might be of interest to note that Vavryn and Winkelbauer have been compaigning for some time (these guys are on a mission) to make ABS mandatory for motorcycles sold in Australia and also to place horsepower limits on the sale of motorcycles in Australia (see the conclusion page of the reference). People on a mission to mandate something for my own good are frightening to me.

I will provide contradictory data to the cited references. I am simply a bit busy right now.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:28 PM   #18
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Abs

Interesting links tmex. I've added them to my ABS bookmarks. All underlines are mine.

Link 1
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngDistance.pdf

"CONCLUSIONS

In general, the test results
demonstrated an improvement in braking
performance with the use of ABS, whether
braking on a dry or wet surface even compared
with the best stops obtained without ABS.
Without ABS, the rider required
numerous attempts
to approach the maximum
deceleration performance of the motorcycle.
With the use of ABS, however, the rider was
able to quickly obtain consistent maximum
deceleration results,
whether the vehicle was
loaded or lightly loaded."


From link 2

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

"In Conclusion

In the end, everyone could hardly believe just how good ABS really is. It's certainly not a sales gimmick. This is clearly the biggest advance in braking safety since the advent of the disc brake. Our group of testers had just one complaint: Why is ABS not available on more motorcycles?

At least part of the answer to that question lies in our own resistance to change and, in particular, to bikers' reluctance to abdicate any amount of control of their mounts to "technology." We're a fairly independent lot, and take a certain amount of pride in the fact that we regularly rely on our own abilities and talents to get ourselves out of trouble.

Still another part of the answer comes with the rather large cost of ABS. High-tech braking has a price, and it's one that is high enough to make most of us stop and think twice about purchasing it. BMW's system adds $1000 and 20 pounds to the equivalent non-ABS models. Honda's system weighs 11 pounds and raises the ST's price tag by $1900 (though to be fair, that also includes the Traction Control System, which we will test in a future issue). The Yamaha is the light-weight king at 9 pounds, adding $1200 to the FJ's retail price.

I guess in the end the only real question is not whether or not you can afford ABS, but can you afford to ride without it?"
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:32 PM   #19
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I have ABS. I didn't really want to spend a thousand dollars on it but I did because I said to myself "well if I use it once it will be worth it." I have owned many bikes, and none with abs.

I would not buy it again. I do probably 50/50 on and off road. On road I can stop much faster without abs, and I feel like I have more control and a better feel for the bike with it off (I have TKC's by the way). Off road yes you can switch it off. But it gets annoying because you have to do it every time you start up the bike. No more firing it up and burning out into the dust. You have to hold your finger on that stupid button every time. It's only for a couple seconds but that's annoying to me

If I was to do it all over again I would save that $1k for suspension improvements.

my .02

Quote:
Originally Posted by tundra61
I am thinking about getting an f800gs and I know there are some decent deals on non-ABS models.

Please share your opinion on the real value of ABS on this bike.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:43 PM   #20
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Abs

I've heard there is a fuse or connector you can pull to turn it off and not have to reset it all the time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicoJustin
I have ABS. I didn't really want to spend a thousand dollars on it but I did because I said to myself "well if I use it once it will be worth it." I have owned many bikes, and none with abs.

I would not buy it again. I do probably 50/50 on and off road. On road I can stop much faster without abs, and I feel like I have more control and a better feel for the bike with it off (I have TKC's by the way). Off road yes you can switch it off. But it gets annoying because you have to do it every time you start up the bike. No more firing it up and burning out into the dust. You have to hold your finger on that stupid button every time. It's only for a couple seconds but that's annoying to me

If I was to do it all over again I would save that $1k for suspension improvements.

my .02
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoriley
I guess in the end the only real question is not whether or not you can afford ABS, but can you afford to ride without it?"
Catchy slogan from an aspiring magazine writer. These guys crack me up.

You are focussing on the rhetoric and not the test results...

As far guys requiring several tries to reach their "best" non-ABS results I would simply say that if they were better riders they would not need more than one try assuming complete familiarity with the bike. In any case we are talking about the ultimate performance of the system not the rider. Let them try both systems an infinite number of times as far as I am concerned.

Price is not a factor in my ABS decision making process. I am a very good rider, and I know I can stop faster without it on normal (dry) surfaces, and I can "brake steer" on asphalt as well so long as I do not have ABS. On sketchy surfaces (which I ride on a lot), I can stop much faster without ABS. On wet surfaces I don't think any rider, regardless of skill, can improve on ABS results - the human brain just cannot work that fast.

The real fly in all of the ointment associated with test results is that they are contrived. As you correctly pointed out in your first post, emergencies are not planned. If I know I am in a braking test, that knowledge will skew my performance and my results dramatically relative to a real world "surprise". On the other hand, what else can you do to gather data?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
The real fly in all of the ointment associated with test results is that they are contrived. As you correctly pointed out in your first post, emergencies are not planned. If I know I am in a braking test, that knowledge will skew my performance and my results dramatically relative to a real world "surprise". On the other hand, what else can you do to gather data?
Yes, you're right, tmex, the tests are contrived. Even the worst rider will perform better in a braking test when they're prepared for the event. And yet, given that clear advantage, which doesn't exist in real-world conditions, both of the articles you cite unequivocally advocate for ABS!

I'm not sure why you linked to them, since they don't do much to support your contention that ABS is "probably the greatest triumph of marketing over physics in the history of the world." If anything, two out of six riders barely being able to out-brake ABS on dry pavement notwithstanding, they do just the opposite.

David
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Yes, you're right, tmex, the tests are contrived. Even the worst rider will perform better in a braking test when they're prepared for the event. And yet, given that clear advantage, which doesn't exist in real-world conditions, both of the articles you cite unequivocally advocate for ABS!

I'm not sure why you linked to them, since they don't do much to support your contention that ABS is "probably the greatest triumph of marketing over physics in the history of the world." If anything, two out of six riders barely being able to out-brake ABS on dry pavement notwithstanding, they do just the opposite.

David
The experienced riders were better without ABS. The other two were a novice and a mechanic. If I put my mom on a bike I'm sure she would do better with ABS. I might even suggest she buy a motorcycle so equipped.
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
The experienced riders were better without ABS. The other two were a novice and a mechanic. If I put my mom on a bike I'm sure she would do better with ABS. I might even suggest she buy a motorcycle so equipped.
All tests and other stuff aside - despite my many years of dirt/sport/street riding, I am still mortal. I know the level of control I have and have never felt the lack of confidence on any of the bikes I have thrown a leg over. I got the ABS option for one simple reason - it does no harm being there... The one day - out of several thousands of commuting - that some idiot cager catches me unawares and I happen to mash the brake lever, I have the forgiveness for my error. Anyone read Fred Rau's take on this? Despite our many varied opinions, you have to give a guy with over a million miles under his ass some credit. He talked the ups and downs of ABS in one of his columns - conclusion: Good to have it there when you need it.

Of course, opinions are exactly that. Get what YOU can afford and what YOU would like under your ass. What ultimately sold me on the F8 w/ ABS - don't want it on? Turn it off - how cool is that?!?
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnahack
All tests and other stuff aside - despite my many years of dirt/sport/street riding, I am still mortal. I know the level of control I have and have never felt the lack of confidence on any of the bikes I have thrown a leg over. I got the ABS option for one simple reason - it does no harm being there... The one day - out of several thousands of commuting - that some idiot cager catches me unawares and I happen to mash the brake lever, I have the forgiveness for my error. Anyone read Fred Rau's take on this? Despite our many varied opinions, you have to give a guy with over a million miles under his ass some credit. He talked the ups and downs of ABS in one of his columns - conclusion: Good to have it there when you need it.

Of course, opinions are exactly that. Get what YOU can afford and what YOU would like under your ass. What ultimately sold me on the F8 w/ ABS - don't want it on? Turn it off - how cool is that?!?
Yes, it can be turned off, and that is cool. What you don't say is that you have to turn it off each and every time you start the bike which is extremely annoying when riding off road where you stop a lot and you crash a lot.

What you also don't say is that an ABS equipped bike with ABS turned off feels nothing like a non-ABS equipped bike. Believe it or not, BMW brakes are really really good. BMW bikes with ABS and with ABS turned off feel awful at the lever. Yes the brakes work, but they feel wooden - very little feel. A non-ABS equipped bike has truly excellent feel at the lever.

I am beginning to conclude that the ABS faithful on this forum spend little or no time in the dirt.
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
I am beginning to conclude that the ABS faithful on this forum spend little or no time in the dirt.
Yeah, just as you concluded in the other ABS thread that...

Quote:
People extolling the virtues of ABS generally do not know what they are talking about.
Man, I bet you've got a great view from that high horse.

David
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Yeah, just as you concluded in the other ABS thread that...


Man, I bet you've got a great view from that high horse.

David
Actually Woody, I never came to that conclusion (about riding in the dirt) in the "other" thread, and your second quote is from the other thread, not this thread. Are you sincere or are you just acting like the shit disturber that you are?
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
The experienced riders were better without ABS. The other two were a novice and a mechanic. If I put my mom on a bike I'm sure she would do better with ABS. I might even suggest she buy a motorcycle so equipped.
Not sure I would count myself as experienced (400,000+ miles in the 9 years - with and without ABS bikes) in comparison to the person that was named experienced rider in the comparison.

I do ride in what people would call "off-road" but not to the extend I would call myself an off-road rider.

When starting the bike I can certainly take the complicated task of having to hit the starter button AFTER switching the ABS off. If you cannot do that I question the ability to perform a better than ABS stop every time on the pavement.

For the feeling being different against the non-ABS bike that is true and the riding style has to compensate for that. Again something that boils down to the last comment.

If I rode 90% off road and 10% on pavement I would say that non-ABS is likely to be a better choice for that kind of riding. But again I would never assume that my breaking in that case would be perfect on pavement every time :-)

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Old 08-19-2009, 04:00 PM   #29
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If you plan on keeping it forever you won't have to worry about selling it. But if you trade bikes alot ABS would make it sell faster I bet.
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:01 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
BMW bikes with ABS and with ABS turned off feel awful at the lever. Yes the brakes work, but they feel wooden - very little feel. A non-ABS equipped bike has truly excellent feel at the lever.
This doesn't make technical sense. If all the ABS systems I've examined, there is a valve that opens electronically to dump pressure from the brake lines when the ABS electronics sense wheel lock. Whether you turn off the system completely or the wheel isn't locked, this valve stays closed and the brakes function essentially as non-ABS brakes.

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