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Old 08-21-2009, 01:25 PM   #31
bbjsw10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDLuke
*shrug* I simultaneously pull with one hand while pushing with the other, and get immediate, snappy response to my steering inputs. I'm not planning on giving up a portion of that any time soon.
JDLuke, off topic but I f-ing love your avatar. Is that your kid, if so awesome.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbjsw10
JDLuke, off topic but I f-ing love your avatar. Is that your kid, if so awesome.
Not my kid, just a picture I loved when I saw it at break.com. My wife and I have been blessed with 2 boys but no girls.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrsddn
What do you do? I've got wide bars on the S3, and push, and pull to lever the bike over. I guess the old crank the bars to initiate a powerslide method stays with you!
Yup, pushing and pulling at the same time is like power steering. The bike just FLICKS into the lean. If you weight the peg so you can throw your CG over the seat to the inside and bend your inside elbow and lean forwards the bike settles down into the corner quick and you can crack open the throttle a bit to keep the bike at a constant angle instead of falling in too far. The throttle is like another lean-angle helper. Crack it open a bit and the bike wants to stand (or stop falling over after a big crank on the bars). Cracking the throttle a bit also increases your cornering clearance as it tends to make the rear end push out a bit and lightens the front end so the forks open up a bit too.

I thought this stuff was common knowledge for anyone but a n00b but I guess it isn't.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaftEd
Push left to go left, push right to go right. It's basic street bike counter steering 101. I don't make up the rules. I just follow them.
BASIC is just whta it is. BASIC you can pull on the other bar at the same time and get a LOT more response from the bike. It's like power steering. Just pushing takes a LOT more effort and tends to cause you to put too much weight into the bars which means the front end is going to be fighting you as it needs to float around to follow road irregularities. If you don't bend your elbow when you do this you will tend to stiff-arm the bars and grip it too much causing erronious bar inputs. It also seems that it would cause you to push your CG back (equal and opposite forces Mr. Newton) the exact opposite of where you want to move it in a corner.

Pushing and pulling allows the bars to move RIGHT FREAKING NOW and be in control of a precise and measured input rather than just pushing at the bars with one hand.

I haven't read this "total control" book but this technique sounds goofy and it isn't at all in line with what I've learned over the years of racing. Nick Ientatsch specifically mentions pushing AND pulling on the bars for countersteering inputs.

As speeds go up the force of the wheels turning will resist steering inputs and it will take a LOT more force on the bars to deflect them. Just pushing with one hand is like riding with one hand tied behind your back. It might be an interesting experiment to see just how much slower and less control you have doing it this way. But if you want to get the bike to lean over at higher speeds, and you want to do it quickly and precisely you'll have to use both hands unless you are superman. There is a reason why some bikes have wider bars. They NEED the leverage. Back in the 80's the early superbike riders would actually BEND the bars they were pushing and pulling at them so hard. I can't believe any race/track coach would suggest using only one hand.

Weird.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:11 PM   #35
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I can see the point of teaching new riders to push with one hand, as there is so much to process when you don't have a clue. As one gains experience, then things will slow down a bit. I'm definitely a proponent of major seat time on a dirt bike before venturing out on the road. It will produce a more skilled rider in a shorter period of time, IMHO.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrsddn
major seat time on a dirt bike before venturing out on the road. It will produce a more skilled rider in a shorter period of time, IMHO.
+1

Indeed, 8 years of wreaking dirt bikes did me some good. Now riding on the road seems easy.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrsddn
I can see the point of teaching new riders to push with one hand, as there is so much to process when you don't have a clue. As one gains experience, then things will slow down a bit. I'm definitely a proponent of major seat time on a dirt bike before venturing out on the road. It will produce a more skilled rider in a shorter period of time, IMHO.
Exactly.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:27 PM   #38
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Here's my bad advice of the day:

When I was nOOb back on my first bike, a used beater KZ750, my brother invited me to go to the Seahawks game with him. I suggested taking the bike to make parking easier as I knew some good cheater spots for a bike down by the Kingdom.

Being a nOOb, I was not the smoothest rider on the planet, especially with a passenger. Actually I was an awful rider. We decided to stop for a beer or two on the way. After a couple of beers, we hopped back on the bike and went to the game. When we got to the game my brother said he noticed, as I had, how much smoother and better my riding was after the beers. Markedly so. I suppose it had something to do with the beer lowering my inhibitions a little and not being as nervous.

So my advice is to go slam a few beers and then go out and haul ass around those turns.



















(I keed. I keed. I do NOT advocate drinking and riding. But that is a true story.)
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:47 PM   #39
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Posts like that really set a bad example for youngsters like me.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:14 PM   #40
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"What can I do to get better?"

1) Track day/school.

2) Find a section of (safe) twisty road you're comfortable with. Practice this section over and over. Sounds like you have enough information to know what you're doing 'wrong'... so try improving your line, a little at a time.

3) My personal approach: Don't worry about your speed. Instead simply enjoy your bike... and the way you ride it.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:19 PM   #41
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Lots of good advice here. Everybody should master countersteering,not only for cornering but it is the quikest method of avoiding danger. Find a set of twisties and ALONE try to go through them slowly but smoothly, ie no sudden hard braking or accelaration, increase your speed slowly but maintain your smoothness.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:40 PM   #42
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The best advice I ever got was this: "Trust your bike to do what it was made to do."

Once I started thinking this through, it helped me relax in the corners and enjoy the ride.
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR_firefly
BASIC is just whta it is. BASIC you can pull on the other bar at the same time and get a LOT more response from the bike. It's like power steering. Just pushing takes a LOT more effort and tends to cause you to put too much weight into the bars which means the front end is going to be fighting you as it needs to float around to follow road irregularities. If you don't bend your elbow when you do this you will tend to stiff-arm the bars and grip it too much causing erronious bar inputs. It also seems that it would cause you to push your CG back (equal and opposite forces Mr. Newton) the exact opposite of where you want to move it in a corner.

Pushing and pulling allows the bars to move RIGHT FREAKING NOW and be in control of a precise and measured input rather than just pushing at the bars with one hand.

I haven't read this "total control" book but this technique sounds goofy and it isn't at all in line with what I've learned over the years of racing. Nick Ientatsch specifically mentions pushing AND pulling on the bars for countersteering inputs.

As speeds go up the force of the wheels turning will resist steering inputs and it will take a LOT more force on the bars to deflect them. Just pushing with one hand is like riding with one hand tied behind your back. It might be an interesting experiment to see just how much slower and less control you have doing it this way. But if you want to get the bike to lean over at higher speeds, and you want to do it quickly and precisely you'll have to use both hands unless you are superman. There is a reason why some bikes have wider bars. They NEED the leverage. Back in the 80's the early superbike riders would actually BEND the bars they were pushing and pulling at them so hard. I can't believe any race/track coach would suggest using only one hand.

Weird.
You have to read the book to fully understand the concept.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:05 PM   #44
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Plenty of finer points and good advice here.

However - my bet is (simplify, simplify): The guy is turning in too soon, and not looking through the curve. Look farther ahead and turn in later and that will prolly get him 90% there.

Y'all are making it too complicated for him.

Oh yeah, and no need for OP to "hang off". Not for basic pace road riding. He can keep his butt right on that seat. Just that if he tilts his head, do it towards the inside not the outside.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #45
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t8kitezy

1. From Kenny Roberts SR: Go slow to go fast. While it is counter-intiutive Keith Code teaches this in CSB level 1. Your best learning is done when you're at 70% of your comfort level. I did CSB at Barber a few years back and we were whisping around the track at a snail's pace and told specifically what to look for and what to observe. As suggested, get Total Control and ACTUALLY do the parking lot drills with the cones/tennis balls halves. Video tape yourself with a tripod (not on-bike) so you can review later. Get someone who knows how to ride to observe and give you ACTIONABLE feedback. In Cornerspeed Level II we did a lot of parking lot drills, all about keeping the bike in balance and not upsetting the chassis. Get an 80 or 125cc DB and get freaky with it...

2. Understand throttle control and weight transfer. Learn what smooth roll on is, maintainence throttle, and exit. YOUTube Superbike School UK--pure gold that... If you can afford it, and there's one available get to a school. CSB is excellent, btw. Learn and live by the "Throttle Rule" -- Twist of the Wrist.



3. PICK A SINGLE GEAR and PRACTICE "NO BRAKES"--(Do this in a safe place like the track or an open area parking lot course that you set up.) Do not worry about shifting, do not worry about braking -- STAY IN YOUR COMFORT ZONE and work on "flowing" with the bike. Develop a muscle memory for what a "smooth turn" feels like. It's pretty similar at 30 mph and 130 mph.

4. Learn and do the fugure eight excerscise. Big lazy figure eights where you hook it in at the end.

5. Practice effective braking. Soft (load the suspension), Hard (decel), soft (tipping in--asssuming you're not stopping).

6. RELAX. Do the "chicken wing" drill and flap your elbows from time to time to ensure that you're relaxed on the bars. Use the "screwdriver/door-handle" throttle approach for modulation. Buy Ned Suesse's "DSR" video he covers the what and why of it.

7. Ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs and get a sense for how the bike "feels" when things go right.

8. Don't try to go fast. Try to be smooth. Speed comes with finesse. There are big differences between track/street/dirt please ride accordingly.

Try to keep a "beginner's mind" and be open to learning. Don't get frustrated... when I told people at work I was racing they looked at me funny... I expain it as golf but WAY MORE FRUSTRATING. Here is one of my favorite books on learning new stuff: http://www.joshwaitzkin.com/photos.html

HTHAS
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