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Old 09-03-2009, 06:28 AM   #211
DockingPilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaner32
I've checked the rears and all were in great shape. I mas in the mud a few times, and a few good water crossings too. 8700 Km.
JP,
My fear:

ring......ring...
"Hello" ?
"JP, this is Fank, I'm at Serpentine, my rear wheel bearing just went south, bring me a set will ya" ? "Oh and it's raining hard and I need tools" !
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:22 AM   #212
Maddaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
My service tech told me strait up the bearings would not be under warranty...
Quote:
Originally Postedby Maddaddy
I checked mine and it felt wonky so I am going to SSBMW today to get a confirmation. Either way I think I will replace them anyways. With 12K on the bike the chances are higher.
SSBMW checked mine, thought they were "gritty" and scheduled a warranty service for Friday.


sorry if your dealer is giving you the shaft. They shouldn't be.
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:49 AM   #213
Pete O Static
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I have been watching this thread closely and was not happy to see that as guys started pulling axles, they were finding issues with the bearings. No offense to the OP but it would have been nice to see just an isolated issue.

I fly airplanes for a living and any issue like this would have triggered an Airworthiness Directive forcing all operators to check the bearings. I maintain my bike like I would an airplane, so immediately went to the dealer with this issue.

I could have checked this myself but went to the dealer for several reasons.

1) They are only 20 minutes away.

2) It will now be on record that a customer has had a complaint about the rear bearings. ( none of this hmmmm, we have never heard of this before ) If they find an issue, that too will now be a matter of record for any others who may have an issue.

3) Replacing the bearings myself with an aftermarket set, may only serve to cover up a greater issue. The problem may not be the bearing. So even with new ones, I will still be inclined to pull the back wheel and check every so many miles to make sure.

4) If enough people report this issue to BMW and they begin to see an issue, they will hopefully come up with a permanent fix or recall.

My dealer was great. I told him of the possible issue. Explained how I came to learn of the issue and was quite prepared to pay for them to check. They wrote up the service order with a " customer feels vibration in back wheel. Please check bearings, particularly the one closest to brake rotor." He said this way, it would be done under warranty, no matter what they find.

Can't ask for better than that.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:17 PM   #214
BykMyk
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Out of curiosity, how many of the bikes with the bearing failure have had either a chain adjustment or tire change?
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:08 PM   #215
itsatdm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
My personal belief is there is an issue here and I suspect it is related to either the hub or spacer.

I do not believe it has anything to do with the bearing quality because of the appearence of failed bearings and the fact that the same bearing is holding up on the same bike in other locations as well as other bikes.

I don't believe it is a design issue because too many bikes have bearings that are just fine at mileages that are the same or higher.

That and the fact that it tends to be the disc side rear bearing that keeps failing as well as the unusual patern of the bearing galling on the side of the race is what makes me think it is a missalignment or incorrect preload that is causing these failures.

The disc side of my bikes rear bearing began feeling grity at 5600 miles and is now getting loose.

Any thoughts on how to measure if the bearing is cocked or incorrectly preloaded? I am thinking machine shop but would love it if I could measure it in-house.

P.S. To the guy who's tech told him that BMW would not warranty his bearing. Your tech is speaking beyond his pay grade. The correct process is for the service manager to submit a claim and wait the 2 or so days to get a reply which may be a request for more info but on this I suspect would just be a green light. A service manager can not speak for PUMA or NA, a tech sure as hell can't.
The problem is and I suspect this will apply to the techs also, we do not have the design specs of how long the axle tube is supposed to be, depth of of the hub where the bearing is fitted and what the crush factor is supposed to be for the axle tube if there is one at all.
Some things you could measure is, if the hub is concentric where the bearing fits and if there is any space between the circlip and the bearing. I suppose if the spacer and the left bearing was fitted (spacer flange on that side) then look at the right side w/o the bearing and do a visual. The space being grossly too long or short may lend a clue, but again we don't know how it is supposed to be.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:49 PM   #216
Bayner
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Question

It's not going to be obvious by eyeballing it. The bearings need to be removed from the hub, and measurements taken (vernier caliper) to confirm the lengths are in very close tolerances. If the weather here sucks on the weekend, I may just do this...

I have to ask myself, did the same company machine the rear spacer as did the front axle??!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:03 PM   #217
itsatdm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayner
It's not going to be obvious by eyeballing it. The bearings need to be removed from the hub, and measurements taken (vernier caliper) to confirm the lengths are in very close tolerances. If the weather here sucks on the weekend, I may just do this...

I have to ask myself, did the same company machine the rear spacer as did the front axle??!!
Not being smart, serious question, what are you going to measure it against? I can assume if the bearings are bottomed out and a circlip to hold them in, I would expect little or no tolerance between the two. Do you know how long the spacer should be? The axle is torqued to 74 lb. which I would think bring the spacer into contact with the bearings, how much is too much pressure or should there be none at all?

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Old 09-03-2009, 11:27 PM   #218
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayner
It's not going to be obvious by eyeballing it. The bearings need to be removed from the hub, and measurements taken (vernier caliper) to confirm the lengths are in very close tolerances. If the weather here sucks on the weekend, I may just do this...

I have to ask myself, did the same company machine the rear spacer as did the front axle??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Not being smart, serious question, what are you going to measure it against? I can assume if the bearings are bottomed out and a circlip to hold them in, I would expect little or no tolerance between the two. Do you know how long the spacer should be? The axle is torqued to 74 lb. which I would think bring the spacer into contact with the bearings, how much is too much pressure or should there be none at all?
I agree with itsardm, it's going to be hard to measure. Although things need to be measured BEFORE torque is applied to the axle. If you find several hundredths of a mm difference in the length of the spacer inside the hub to the distance between the two inner races of the center wheel bearings, then you can start to worry.

BTW... Who is still using Vernier calipers? I've got my digital coolant proof (IPX8) Mitutoyo calipers I've had for several years lol.

Trust me, you will never find them outside of their box without my hands on them though.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:42 AM   #219
DockingPilot
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Well, being as anal as I am, and the fact I take off on an annual bike adventure trip in 10 days, I pulled the bearings. All of them. 1st, on my bike anyway, all the bearings are ok quality wise at least looking at them, but they are Chinese (LFD) and 1 NSK. All mine were in perfect condition too btw. I replaced them with SFK bearings anyway.
I took them to my friends motorcycle shop for his opinion. He does bearings all the time on sport bikes. He didnt think anything was unusual except for the fact that the rear bearings were the same size as the fronts. He said usually, the rears are bigger. Also worth noting, and for you guys who have already swapped yours tell me if you saw the same thing, when installing, the bearing kinda just drops in at first. Easily, without freezing. About halfway up the side of the bearing itself before becoming tight. The rest of the way it needs to be pressed in which I did and was tight going in from there. But usually they are tighter than a frogs ass right from the get go. Could this be purposely engineered that way ?
But in short my bearings were just fine and I have had my wheel off many times and have ridden it through deep water a few times as well. Snap ring was flush to the bearing and it seems normal. To me anyway. Go figure.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:34 PM   #220
johngil
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Oh no! Not the "my bearing went in easy half way" syndrome. What's next?

Frank, glad everything looked alright. I will be checking mine, but haven't had the bike for a couple of weeks.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:37 PM   #221
DockingPilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
Oh no! Not the "my bearing went in easy half way" syndrome. What's next?

Frank, glad everything looked alright. I will be checking mine, but haven't had the bike for a couple of weeks.

Thanks John. Keep me posted on your..hopefully, "progress".
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:28 PM   #222
tmex OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot

Thanks John. Keep me posted on your..hopefully, "progress".
DP, after installing the bearings was the spacer between the hub bearings loose or tight?
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:32 PM   #223
Bayner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Not being smart, serious question, what are you going to measure it against? I can assume if the bearings are bottomed out and a circlip to hold them in, I would expect little or no tolerance between the two. Do you know how long the spacer should be? The axle is torqued to 74 lb. which I would think bring the spacer into contact with the bearings, how much is too much pressure or should there be none at all?
Hey, don't worry. This is ADV, and nobody should be such a tightwad as to take offense that easily!

The length of the spacer as prescribed by Woody:
here's where it gets interesting,,,there are two basic approaches to wheel-bearing set-ups.,,,i'll call them:

type A,, probably the most common,,,uses precisely machined lateral flanges on the ID of the hub to locate the bearings....an inner spacer is used to prevent crush when tightening all the components /spacers on the axle... this spacer needs to be minimally .010''+.002-.000/steel or .020'' +.003-.000/aluminum to be effective.... so the hub essentially has a little bit of lateral float buildt in... a simple elegant fairly bullet-proof technique which fails only when :

a,,,the manufacturer uses too soft axle spacer BWOE KTM several years ago on the rear dirt bikes,,too much torque would crush them resulting in many blown up rear hubs

b,,someone specs a spacer the same size or smaller than the inner lip dimension.

type B,,used by Kawasaki,Honda,BmW,Triumph etc, uses some means of retaining one bearing on one side [usually the side where the disc brake is on. ie to make sure the wheel consistently is spaced /aligned properly with the disc],,Kawasaki,KTM and BMW routinely use a circlip to retain that bearing in place,,,honda and triumph usually use a nut to hold it.,,,what usually happens next is that on the other side the bore in the hub often doesn't have an inner lip or the lip is usually bored far deeper than the width of the inner spacer...VOILA you have no worries about proper inner axle spacer dimensions because the bearing should self adjust....


The clamping force of the nut is to keep the axle positioned in the swingarm (and obviously to ensure the nut doesn't back off). It is not to 'preload' the bearing assemblies. Only one bearing is held in by a circlip, so the appropriate spacer length is less of an issue than the depth the second bearing is seated to.

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Old 09-04-2009, 01:49 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayner
Hey, don't worry. This is ADV, and nobody should be such a tightwad as to take offense that easily!

The length of the spacer needs to match the distance between the innermost bearing seat surfaces. Exactly the same would be ideal. The clamping force of the nut is to keep the axle positioned in the swingarm (and obviously to ensure the nut doesn't back off). It is not to 'preload' the bearing assemblies. The spacer should be in contact with the bearings prior to tightening the axle. (Spin one side bearing and the other should turn with it.) Only one bearing is held in by a circlip, so the appropriate spacer length is less of an issue than the depth the second bearing is seated to.
So maybe a little test would be to torque down the axle with the wheel off the bike. Put some spacers on the axle about the same thickness as the swing arms. Then you'll be able to turn the axle by hand and see if there's any sort of binding, which should show up if the bearings are preloaded.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:56 PM   #225
DockingPilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmex
DP, after installing the bearings was the spacer between the hub bearings loose or tight?
T,
After install the spacer was not tight. I could just move it or wiggle it, if you will, with my finger.
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