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Old 12-22-2009, 01:14 PM   #796
DockingPilot
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There all different duck. Mine were Chinese made. But it's been tracked down to the hub being machined too tight. Nothing to do with the bearings. Mine, so far have been fine.
(SFK replacements like yours)
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:21 PM   #797
Ducksbane
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My apologies Frank ... checked my old bearings ... LFD (Shanghai) !
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:22 PM   #798
DockingPilot
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Yes, thats what mine were. Oddly enough, my stem bearing are Japanese made.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:51 PM   #799
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Front ones were LFD too.

http://www.lfd.eu/gb/company01.htm
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:14 PM   #800
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Ive read this hectically long thread with some interest, and think though Woody is on the money for the reasons behing these failures (Thanks Woody for your invaluable advice & private msg´s in getting these $%&#$ bearings off, mate! ), there might be another reason for these bearing failure other than crush.

Please dont get worked up, im not a guru about these things , and my theory is purely speculation. I´d nevertheless like to put it out there, in the hope that we can get to the bottom of this. So please bear with me, any feedback +ve & -ve would be most welcome.

I dont have a BMW dealer to bitch about , the nearest one is 5,000km away in Chile, and I do all my maintenance myself. I also dont have a Woody nearby, but as mentioned above, he was most helpful online, answering many dumbass questions.

My story (you can add me to your list):

My 800GS was one of the first on the floor, model July 2008, bought new in South Africa and Ive since put 12,290km on the clock (yes I now I have not been riding enough, work and then a broken wrist after a nasty encounter with a cage are my excuses!). 80% of my riding is on dirt and about 20% on really rough stuff more suited for plastic bikes.

I rode the bike with an increasing dodgey noise in the back wheel in the last 150km. Took it off, and looked at the bearing, this is what I found:


I could move the inner race about with my finger, in & out about 2mm !! So to say it was "rough" or "notchy" would have been understated; this bearing was well and truely F%&_()d up.



What is clear from this pic is that the inner spacer (between the two wheel bearings inside the hub) was out of position - This is important later.

Here is what the other side (chain side) looked:


Nothing too hectic, a bit of rust perhaps, not much grease left outside the bearing, but it felt smooth and fine. The bearing in the hub was also okay.

On cleaning it up a bit, I noticed that the seal was also badly mauled


Getting this bearing out was a pain in the ass, because the inner race basically fell out with the balls. Getting the outer race out proved to be very difficult. Other bits and pieces also fell out, including a very worn out circular bit you see on the top end of the spacer shown in this photo of Woody´s:

(I realise that mine doesnt have one of these -the little magodey on the end of the spacer- in now, dont think its going to be a problem unless the bearing moves somehow )

Anyway, the remains of the bearing was very, very dry and pretty screwed up. We (myself and my good mate Pat, who has more experience working on bikes than me) had to use a thin weld on the inside of the outer race to get it out. What a pain in the ass.


The hub looked fine, and the other bearing (chain side) came out easily enough with a hammer and screwdriver.

Seating the new bearing (first on the brake side) was not an issue, freezing the bearing and heating the hub to about 100 degrees C.


It basically slipped in and a light tap was needed to seat it in its groove on the inside of the hub. Dont tap on the edge like in this photee, if you must tap, do it in the middle


The ease we had on installation is the reason I suspect I dont have a crush issue on my bike. Nevertheless my bearing problem is now also registered with the NHTSBWHATISITCALLED government website (does this mean the NSA now have me in thier DB? ) . Having measured the OD´s and ID´s using only a vernier, we had a difference of about 0.1-0.2mm (sorry never wrote them down). We felt this was okay, not too tight. The bearing could have been tapped in without heat (although this may have damaged it & consequently I doubt is recommended).

The other bearing was a piece of cake to install too. However, we had problems getting the spacer in between to line up properly, before we tapped the bearing onto the spacer. Putting the wheel back on and tightening up I noticed bearings, even the wheel was very difficult to move Something had to be wrong.

We took it off again and removed the chain-side bearing again
, this time measuring the spacer to see if it protruded above the shoulder where the bearing sits on the hub. We noticed a 0.4mm protrusion on the spacer above the seat position of the bearing.

But we also noticed that when you install the bearing on the chain side it is very, very easy to knock it too tight on the outer race, causing potential lateral stress on the inner race of the bearing while seating the floating right hand bearing.

Im a bit of a lazy ass when it comes to engineering drawings (bear/beer with me) but here follows a couple of powerpoint drawings that I want to use to demonstrate my hypothesis. Taking a cross section through the hub & bearings this is what you see:



The hub is in green, bearing races in blue, circlip in red, showing where the fixed bearing is positioned on the left.


Below is the whole approximate setup when it is bolted together on the wheel. Ive added all the spacers in yellow, everything between the purple swing arm legs. You can see that the wheel can turn because the lateral axle pressure holding the wheel together runs right through on the inner bearing races and spacers:



Now for the our speculation: When we install the floating bearing on the right we typically exert the pressure to get it in on the outer race. This prevents the lateral force damaging the inner race, balls & seals. However the inner race stops up against the spacer inside the hub before the outer race reaches the back wall, and a residual force may be built up on the inner race if the bearing does not literally slip into position on the spacer by hand. This force is likely be transferred through the spacer accross to the bearing on the left hand side, which cannot move at all thanks to the circlip, and this is the reason why I think the bearing failed prematurely. Here is a simplified and exaggerated picture showing what I think is happening.


We found that the the lateral force builds up very quickly on the internal spacer as you seat the floating bearing on the right, and that it literally only has to touch the spacer before it is in the correct position and prevents the spacer from moving out of position. If the bearing has to be hammered in at all, this lateral force will quickly and easily be exterted to the inner race and the result cannot be good for the bearing. In our case it was really bad the first time we installed it, because we were probably too agressive in getting the bearing in before it heated up in the hub.

So having fiddled so much I think my bearings wont last long again (I think I may have hurt both of them, only having replaced the one twice!) so I will be checking often. I´d like to hear what the experts say on this, Im also cross posting this to Woody´s thread found here http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505577
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:36 PM   #801
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Seems to me to be a design or manufacturing quality issue. The spacer must be the right length so that there is no lateral stress on the inner race of the brake side but also not slop around loose when the axle is tightened. I would try and run a vernier thru the hub and measure the outer race seat to seat distance and make sure the spacer is the same length. If the spacer is longer as per your findings either the spacer needs to be shortened or there needs to be a thin washer type landing created the thickness of the difference to keep the bearing on the sprocket side from being pressed in to far.

Looks like the manufacturer of the hubs is having 2 issues:

1. Not changing his tool tip as often as needed so as the tool wears the diameter of the bearing bores gets smaller during CNC milling process.

2. Spacers are not made to the correct length or the hub milling depth specification is off.

Woody should be able to determine if it is better to shorten the shaft or add the thin washer. He will ened to check how the sprocket cush assembly and bearings and spacers will fit when the change is made.

Looks like a very valid analysis to me BlueBull2007. Thanks for sharing with the forum.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:53 PM   #802
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
....

Indy Unlimited, I agree with your theory #1, "Not changing his tool tip as often as needed so as the tool wears the diameter of the bearing bores gets smaller during CNC milling process." Something like this occurred. On my bike, I measured the disk side bearing bore and it was way too tight. On another bike that was inspected before delivery at a customers request, the bore was spot on.

....


In any case, as with all motorcycles, I would encourage everyone to at least check there bikes often for wheel bearing wear.

Do this by center standing the bike and placing both your hands on the wheel on the same side but opposite each other and gently rock while feeling for increased play. Do this at multiple angles like 6 and 12 a-clock, 3 and 9 a-clock and so on. This simple test will also show when the rear forks, front forks, or head bearings are having a problem.

Check for bearing wear regardless of model or brand of motorcycle you own. I have seen low mile wheel bearing failure on both Honda and Aprillia this very year in our traded in inventory.

Good luck all, happy new years.

Kinda strange stuff with the hub, you would think BMW's QC department would catch this kind of stuff. I sure would specify a QC dimension on any bearing surfaces in my drawings.

Good info on checking the bearings. Luckily (and expensively) my knobbies wear so quickly it is easy for me to check when the wheel if off too. I will be checking my SV650SF next time I ride it too!!
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:02 PM   #803
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JoelWisman is right about checking your wheels for bearing play it is easy and when you start to feel the play you can plan on replacing the bearings. Us dirt bike riders go through wheel bearings like crazy due to mud and water getting in there and the pounding of off road trails.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:58 PM   #804
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Thanks JoelWiseman for your comments, its appreciated. I know you get nailed to the wall at times by the inmates , but I thought I´d let you know your comments are appreciated by people like myself.

Keep it up bro & ride safe.
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:34 PM   #805
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Ender, the hubs are delivered to BMW by a peputable supplier with the bearings already installed so there is little oppertunity for BMW QC to catch a bearing crush problem.
I hope you meant "reputable", I searched the web in case you meant some new level of awesome or shitty supplier (I've seen em both).

Good luck in the snow! I won't hesitate to ride in the mud but that damn snow is really foreign to us Texas peeps.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:09 PM   #806
duckrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited
Us dirt bike riders go through wheel bearings like crazy due to mud and water getting in there and the pounding of off road trails.
When replacing the wheels, I always wipe the lip seals clean and then pack them with waterproof grease. No water or dust gets past unless either the seals or the spacers are worn. That can be avoided with a stainless sleeve over the aluminum spacer.
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:02 PM   #807
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You need to try some good old red clay mud ( Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio )! when going through the muddy water the fine clay dust mud will turn your axles orange from one end to the other! Even the bearing race on a freshly greased axle stands no chance of stopping the entire axle turning orange!
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:06 PM   #808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Bluebull2007, the factory tool we use to install bearings has a projection in the center that fits the bearing inner hole and is flat all the way across to apply pressure squarely on both the inner and outer races simultaneously.
This is the key to alleviating your problem Bluebull2007. The right side bearing is intended to "float" in it's position in the hub. It looked like you used a socket to press the bearing in - that presses the outer race only. By using a solid tool the presses both the outer and inner races the bearing will stop at the sleeve and the outer race will be in the proper "float" position.
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Old 01-01-2010, 02:53 PM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawk47
This is the key to alleviating your problem Bluebull2007. The right side bearing is intended to "float" in it's position in the hub. It looked like you used a socket to press the bearing in - that presses the outer race only. By using a solid tool the presses both the outer and inner races the bearing will stop at the sleeve and the outer race will be in the proper "float" position.
Is there a backer for the bearing on the other side? Otherwise, what's to keep the collar from simply transferring that pressure to the other bearing?
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:16 PM   #810
Bluebull2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni
Is there a backer for the bearing on the other side? Otherwise, what's to keep the collar from simply transferring that pressure to the other bearing?
There is a circlip on the back end but even if you use a flat piece of metal as suggested above, you are likley to load the inner race of the bearing on the otherside, unless youre verrrrrrry careful on installation.

Incidentaly I had a flat on my wheel today and noticed that my spacer is loose inside the hub (I dont have that little piece on the end anymore that helps hold it in position. Im happy therefore that there is no pressure through the spacer in my case on either of the two bearings. It makes things a little tricky when installing the wheel back on the swingarm though
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