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Old 04-08-2010, 12:50 AM   #961
OldCrock
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Joel

Hi Joel,
Yes I and others here in Victoria, Australia have been down the Dealer / sevice dept route and the result is as posted.
We have 2 F800GS bikes so our problem is compounded x 2

As for other issues.
Chain.
I replaced the chain after the 1st dirt ride because I was worried about the amount of chain stretch in only 200km's. My bike was far worse than my wifes bike.
I later found threads about chain issues... was no longer an issue for me.

Shock Bolt & Suspension.
I have not bent a shock bolt so far, I am running Hyperpro springs front and
back on my bike. Just fork springs in wifes bike.
Again I am aware of possible damage riding offroad so do take caution when necessary.
I changed the springs in my bike after the 1st ride because of my weight at 100kg - (220lb).
My wife at 85kg - (187lb) found the springs and shock ok. We upgraded her fork springs a few weeks ago after she complained of bottoming out a few times.
I have no issue with changing spring weights to suit each rider. Its cheap and well worth doing.
I can not say that I am that unhappy that I need to spend big $$ on Bitubo's, etc. But then again I don't do big jumps or slam into washouts on my bike.

Wheel Bearings.
We have had to replace our wheel bearings and after the Dealer attitude with one bike we replaced the others ourselves (had a qualified mechanic do the work or us).
The bearings in my wifes bike are due for replacement again now.
approx 5000km's later.
We do a lot of offroad and river crossings so expect bearing problems.
We will continue to monitor and replace the bearings as it is cheap compared to hub damage. This applied to all our past bikes as well.

As for my view of BMW dealerships.
I am obviously not alone when it comes to getting the fob off from BMW dealerships when it comes to wheel bearing issues.
Ours happened early and the dealer knows we ride offroad, so it was difficult to argue that the hub was at fault. Back then no one knew about the bearing crush problem.
However the general attitude of our only BMW Dealer is to deny all claims and let the owner prove that there are other cases worldwide before they will even talk further. A monopoly position is also in our dealers favour as the nearest other dealers are interstate.

I thank you for being open and honest about your dealings with customers and your dealership. Unfortunately sometimes we customers have to seek any means possible to get the attention of BMW dealers when we have an issue and it is especially hard when your one of the 1st to experience a problem.

I will ask about submitting a PUMA next visit, but I dont like my chances.

Sorry almost forgot....
No I dont think we are expecting BMW to respond to threads in this or any forum.
However if you read the underlying current of discontent by BMW customers... surely BMW must realise they have a PR issue at the very least.
Have you told your Manager that you just lost a sale due to the views expressed on a forum.
The internet is world wide.. The word is out there.. Get ready for more lost sales due to the 'cover up' scenario everyone likes to envision, especially on forums.
The noisy door hinge gets the oil as the old saying goes.
If enough sales are lost because BMW are percieved to be hiding problems with their product, they might eventually start to be more open with their customers.
You are the obvious odd one out in my experiance (BMW person who will give an honest opinion). Most BMW folk will go to the grave screaming there is no problems, no problems,.....

Thanks for understanding.
Oldcrock

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Old 04-08-2010, 08:23 AM   #962
JoelWisman
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Thanks so much Oldcrock!

This kind of post puts me in a good mood, not because of your experience, I'm sorry for that. This post puts me in a good mood because it is specific and therefore does not make me feel helpless, there may be things I can do to help.

This is good use of the internet!

There are no company BMW dealerships, all dealers are independently owned, and there is only narrow reasons that allow BMW to apply real force to change a dealers treatment of customers, or close them.

A steady stream of unhappy customers is a reason BMW corporate can act.

A few suggestions:

save your old bearings. Regardless of if you replace bearings yourself or your dealership does, if the parts are not paid for under warranty or good will, you own them. Those bearings under careful observation, asuming they are not totally destroyed, will tell the tale of why they failed.

Insist on a PUMA case if warranty is refused. If your dealership has an atitude from the start, it's already a broken relationship, force the issue.

It's possible there is something invasive in the sand there or some other reason the bearings are failing young, but until someone furnashes an explination that satisfies you, keep pushing. Ask to see the puma resolution.

If it does not meet your explinations, ask to talk with your reigonal BMW reprisentitive.

Basically there are going to be two guys who have a lot of power to help you.

One is your regional service rep, this guy will see your PUMA case and is the guy who holds the pot of warranty funds and decides what your dealership gets paid for in regards to warranty.

The next guy is the BMW rep, they have different names in different markets but usually they are called the district dealer rep. The dealer rep sits on a pot of money called "good will". He can authorize repairs that the service rep does not wish to, he also cal make life exceedingly unpleasent for a service rep. Last thing, the dealer rep is in charge of something called back end money, basically sales incentives to a dealership. Under certain circumstances he can withold this money and impovirish a dealer with a snotty atitude.

There is a proper procedure or process to follow if you are unsatisfied and your dealer and service reps are unknown by me, but I can gaurantee that they would rather talk to you and resolve this then have you unhappy with BMW.

Your dealership could decide tomorrow that they would rather be a Honda dealership but BMW corprate is stuck with being BMW lol. The customers they have and there feelings toward BMW is very important.

I can't share PUMA cases, I signed a non disclosure form, but I can share measurements and pictures of my bad hub, as well as tell any service manager "yeah, there have been issues, consult PUMA". Though I really shouldn't have to tell other shops how to do their jobs and it will piss them off.

If you want though, I'm happy to do that too. Bad dealership interactions and general Internet posts punish the good and bad dealerships. If there is ever anything I can do including use my personal time to get the heat focused on the problems, I am happy to.

Thanks again for the specific post.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:31 AM   #963
sturgeon
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I don't have wheel bearing issues. Yet. Maybe never. If I do, I'll deal with them, at my dealer, in whom I have a lot of faith. This is really just a suggestion for the more prolific posters.

I've been known, especially where I work, as a somewhat crusty individual who's not shy about expressing an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. Others who know me would say that was putting it mildly. After several years of getting myself into waist-deep crap for sounding off when I was pissed off about something, and then taking my toys and going home for a while, I finally learned something. I learned, whenever I was in a foul mood or disagreed strongly with someone, to compose what I wanted to say and then file it away for a day or two, without sending it. Once I learned that, I saved myself a lot of grief by just discarding most of what I'd written. I still got a lot of satisfaction out of expressing my feelings; it's just that most of the time nobody else ever got to read it

Try it some time, you might find that it works for you. Or not.

Oh yeah, this is my last day at work. Ever. I'm retired.
Hmm, what to do, what to do?
Maybe a ride somewhere.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:34 AM   #964
DockingPilot
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Congrats Sturgeon !
Man, I can't wait for that day. 12 years left for me.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:52 AM   #965
sturgeon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot
Congrats Sturgeon !
Man, I can't wait for that day. 12 years left for me.
Thanks! It's been 36 years of waiting for me. My actual date is June 1, but I have enough accumulated vacation to walk out tonight and not come back.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:40 PM   #966
itsatdm
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Insist on a PUMA case if warranty is refused. If your dealership has an atitude from the start, it's already a broken relationship, force the issue.

I am glad you explained what PUMA is. My dealer filed one on my behalf re: my cracked fuel tank. Is a dealer required to file one if an owner insists? If not, what other options does an owner have, if the issue is not safety related?
I recognize that the dealers opinion must carry a lot of weight with BMW corp. on the decision making process to honor a warrany claim, so my personna with him may be different than the one I present on the internet. I think my reasons are valid and I have stated them piece meal through various threads. Admittedly they don't make a very good case when parsed out over different subject matters.
I know that the dealers can believe that consummables like chains and bearings are by nature not a warranty item. If a majority feel that way, how will a data base ever be established to prove other wise? So maybe internet opinions do serve some purpose even if adjusted for people who just like to bitch.
How much do you think money plays in all this? I was told by my dealer, that what was allocated to replace my fuel tank did not cover the real labor cost involved.
I would like to think that there is a go around for a dealer customer disagreement, but I don't feel I got much satisfaction when I tried BMWNA customer service. primarily because they appeared ill informed on the issues, which goes back to the dealers and a data base that seems at odds with what I see on the internet.
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Old 04-08-2010, 01:22 PM   #967
Gangplank
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From what I gather PuMA in German = Problem und Mebnahmenmanagement Aftersales (aka Problem and Measures-management Aftersales)

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Insist on a PUMA case if warranty is refused. If your dealership has an atitude from the start, it's already a broken relationship, force the issue.

I am glad you explained what PUMA is. My dealer filed one on my behalf re: my cracked fuel tank. Is a dealer required to file one if an owner insists? If not, what other options does an owner have, if the issue is not safety related?
I recognize that the dealers opinion must carry a lot of weight with BMW corp. on the decision making process to honor a warrany claim, so my personna with him may be different than the one I present on the internet. I think my reasons are valid and I have stated them piece meal through various threads. Admittedly they don't make a very good case when parsed out over different subject matters.
I know that the dealers can believe that consummables like chains and bearings are by nature not a warranty item. If a majority feel that way, how will a data base ever be established to prove other wise? So maybe internet opinions do serve some purpose even if adjusted for people who just like to bitch.
How much do you think money plays in all this? I was told by my dealer, that what was allocated to replace my fuel tank did not cover the real labor cost involved.
I would like to think that there is a go around for a dealer customer disagreement, but I don't feel I got much satisfaction when I tried BMWNA customer service. primarily because they appeared ill informed on the issues, which goes back to the dealers and a data base that seems at odds with what I see on the internet.
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Old 04-08-2010, 02:36 PM   #968
WoodWorks
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No bearing problems at 19,280 mi.

I had my dealer install some new tires on my F800 today (at 19,280 miles, with 11,536 miles on Heidenau K60s!), and made sure that he gave my wheel bearings a good inspection.

I've been dealing with him for almost 14 years now, and he's gone out on a limb for me against BMWNA a few times, and gone out of his way to give me good service when I was in need. In other words, I have a high level of trust here. After personally inspecting them, he says that my bearings are fine. I'll have them checked again at the 24K service. But for now I'm not going to worry about them. They're good.

I just thought it would reassure some of you to know that not all BMWs come with bad bearings.

David
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:18 PM   #969
woody's wheel works
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the simple version...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco
We seem to enjoy chasing our tails. Months and months ago I had a notchy bearing, I knocked it out and it was smoother out of the hub! A quick measurement and what do ya know, way to tight. I remove the excess material and install new bearings. I post my findings here for all to read. 3k miles later, time for a tire change, and the bearings are so SMOOOOTH, that they turn easier than the bearings on my balancer. Now awhile after my first post Woody get a wheel, measures it, comes up with the same results, and the same cure.AND STILL there we are chasing our tails. I fixed my hub, changed my bearings, and my bearings lived happily ever after.
Cisco
10-4

When will they ever get it? It is so simple.

w
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woody's wheel works screwed with this post 04-08-2010 at 07:20 PM
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:58 PM   #970
bross
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Just ride the damn thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgeon
I don't have wheel bearing issues. Yet. Maybe never. If I do, I'll deal with them, at my dealer, in whom I have a lot of faith. This is really just a suggestion for the more prolific posters.

I've been known, especially where I work, as a somewhat crusty individual who's not shy about expressing an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. Others who know me would say that was putting it mildly. After several years of getting myself into waist-deep crap for sounding off when I was pissed off about something, and then taking my toys and going home for a while, I finally learned something. I learned, whenever I was in a foul mood or disagreed strongly with someone, to compose what I wanted to say and then file it away for a day or two, without sending it. Once I learned that, I saved myself a lot of grief by just discarding most of what I'd written. I still got a lot of satisfaction out of expressing my feelings; it's just that most of the time nobody else ever got to read it

Try it some time, you might find that it works for you. Or not.

Oh yeah, this is my last day at work. Ever. I'm retired.
Hmm, what to do, what to do?
Maybe a ride somewhere.
Congrats on your retirement, I'm done on Tuesday, not retired just laid off but same result. I love the new BMW ad I just read this morning, you can't say they don't read forums, this was written for ADVRider.

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Old 04-08-2010, 06:35 PM   #971
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Insist on a PUMA case if warranty is refused. If your dealership has an atitude from the start, it's already a broken relationship, force the issue.

I am glad you explained what PUMA is. My dealer filed one on my behalf re: my cracked fuel tank. Is a dealer required to file one if an owner insists? If not, what other options does an owner have, if the issue is not safety related?
I recognize that the dealers opinion must carry a lot of weight with BMW corp. on the decision making process to honor a warrany claim, so my personna with him may be different than the one I present on the internet. I think my reasons are valid and I have stated them piece meal through various threads. Admittedly they don't make a very good case when parsed out over different subject matters.
I know that the dealers can believe that consummables like chains and bearings are by nature not a warranty item. If a majority feel that way, how will a data base ever be established to prove other wise? So maybe internet opinions do serve some purpose even if adjusted for people who just like to bitch.
How much do you think money plays in all this? I was told by my dealer, that what was allocated to replace my fuel tank did not cover the real labor cost involved.
I would like to think that there is a go around for a dealer customer disagreement, but I don't feel I got much satisfaction when I tried BMWNA customer service. primarily because they appeared ill informed on the issues, which goes back to the dealers and a data base that seems at odds with what I see on the internet.
some of these questions are above my pay grade.

Warranty reimbursement rate is quite generous with BMW, better then any other company I have worked for. Flat rate hours are mostly reasonable but only if you have a tech who has done the specific job many times and has his work area sorted and geared towards the task. If the task is unusual, you take a real hit on labor.

In the warranty contract wheel bearings ARE spelled out as consumables that the customer is responcible for. That said, sometimes the bearings are obviously not "consumed" but rather defective. In the cases I am directly familiar with, BMW stood behind the product and warranted parts and labor.

A dealers weight with BMW is variable depending on what that dealers corporate service rep and dealer rep think of them. Some dealers opinnions carry very little weight. The system is also set up on regions. I know the two people in charge of the Midwest region. I have never met nor likely will I ever interact with the west coast reps and have no clue as to what kinds of folks they are.

There is a contract between a dealer and BMW, sadly though, I do not know what it says. I can't immagine why any dealer would ever refuse to start a PUMA case. All puma really is, is a dealer officially saying "this guy came in and says his bike is doing X, and we checked it out and so far found X, have you seen this before and what are you willing to pay us to do about it".

I should think any dealer would be willing to do this if for no other reason then that at the least if the answer is no they can shuffle the blame to corporate.

If a dealer refuses to kick something to corporate, walk out and don't ever return.

When you call customer relations you are talking to a minion who types everything out for someone else. I'm fuzzy on this because none of my direct customers have ever had to escalate any complaints beyond me so far, but I shall endever to find out this weekend.

Hope this answered some questions. I am off to a 3 day off road thing my dealer is putting on and our dealer rep is going to be present.
PM me and remind me to answer more fully. I have a good memory for the details but remembering to reply to something escapes me from time to time.

Good luck and have fun everyone
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I love and miss you Jeneca and I'm sorry.
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:50 PM   #972
cisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
10-4

when will they ever get it???,,,so simple

w
WHAT, NO YELLOW PRINT?
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Old 04-08-2010, 07:16 PM   #973
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco
WHAT, NO YELLOW PRINT?
Sorry, probably my fault.

Next: work on those multiple commas.

David
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Old 04-08-2010, 07:21 PM   #974
woody's wheel works
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Sorry, probably my fault.

Next: work on those multiple commas.

David
edited for you 7:20


10-4

When will they ever get it? It is so simple.

w __________________
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..For more info check our website...
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....Wanna e-mail us... woodyswheelworks@gmail.com
......Wanna talk,,,call us
toll free... 1-866-936-0232
........If you're lost???... GPS = 39*40'33.86N x 104*59'54.69W
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:00 PM   #975
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
edited for you 7:20
Feel free to slap me upside the head if I ever get within range, Woody.

David
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