ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-18-2004, 10:45 AM   #16
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
I believe the 660 rallye LC4s have 3 oil filters and considering fitting a third to my 640LC4-E. Anyone done this? Would appreciate comments on the following:

Possibility of increased engine longevity.
Possibility of increased intervals between oil changes.
Increased time to carry out an oil/filter change. Is additional bleeding etc. involved? Perhaps 660 rallye owners can shed some light on this.

Thanks in Advance.
Hi Ian,

You're right. The Rally's have three filters.
The two normal Lc4 Filters and the extra fine filter from the old SC models. Nicknamed Toiletroll because it looks like a roll of loopaper.
This is made to have more oil for better cooling.
You will still have to change it at least every 5000Km.
It will not change anything in the procedure or intervalls.
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2004, 03:11 PM   #17
Ian640 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Oddometer: 243
Thumb

Thanks for the replies all. At least it's stimulated some debate.

Re: Why is the third filter there? The mechanic who looks after my LC4 is also of the opinion that the third filter is there due to the day long racing conditions.

A shame it doesn't increase the service intervals. I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing, and that was using semi-synthetic oil.

Re: Reusable oil filter. Have a glance at the Scotts Performance website www.scottsperformance.com.

Re: Fitting an oil cooler. It's proportions can be judged by having a look at the front of a 2001 onwards 660 rally, but perhaps an owner can help out here with precise dimensions.

The problem would be where to locate it due to the different fairing on the 640 Adventure. I guess at least a low level front fender would be necessary.

Cheers.
Ian640 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 01:01 AM   #18
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
Thanks for the replies all. At least it's stimulated some debate.

Re: Why is the third filter there? The mechanic who looks after my LC4 is also of the opinion that the third filter is there due to the day long racing conditions.

A shame it doesn't increase the service intervals. I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing, and that was using semi-synthetic oil.

Re: Reusable oil filter. Have a glance at the Scotts Performance website www.scottsperformance.com.

Re: Fitting an oil cooler. It's proportions can be judged by having a look at the front of a 2001 onwards 660 rally, but perhaps an owner can help out here with precise dimensions.

The problem would be where to locate it due to the different fairing on the 640 Adventure. I guess at least a low level front fender would be necessary.

Cheers.

Hi Ian,

we had this discussion "How to increase the Oil change intervals" the other day in a german forum.
The 5000Km intervals are a suggestion from KTM.
If you run your Lc4 in a competition you might change the oil long before 5000Km. In some situations it might be not possible to change it at 5000Km.
Than change ASAP. Even if this means 7000Km. This will only happen on a long journey. On this rides you are riding much more sensible than in a competition.
If you don't plan to compete in the Dakar or an other long distance Rally, you will not need a oil cooler or third filter.
Another point is, one of the two oil pumps in the rally bike is bigger than on the production Lc4 engine.
If you try to expand your lubrication system with a third filter and an oilcooler you will need this bigger pump too. The filter alone will work without changing the pump. Cooler not.
BTW. I have a spare fine filter laying around. Interested??
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 01:14 AM   #19
Converted Soul
On the search dude
 
Converted Soul's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Dordrecht, holland
Oddometer: 288
" I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing,"


What do you expect? That it seizes up at 1 km over the interval? If the oil doesn't get to hot and the piston rings are oke (so the oil doesn't get polluted with fuel) then the oil in a 640 engine can probable do 30000 km/20000miles between changes. 5000 km is really ridiculous. In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why? Because in commercial engines the oil is lab tested, and the service intervals are determined by the lab results. We, as consumers, are scared into money making deals between vehicle manufacturers, their dealers and oil manufacturers.
Tiny service intervals are only beneficiary for the dealers, manufacturers and oil companys, not for you.
KTM gets money (or lower oil prices) from Motorex for kepping up with the tiny services intervals, dealers are glad to sell KTM's because a week later they can already rip you for a oil change.
__________________
KTM Adv 640, 2003
DAF YA-4440
Converted Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 01:14 AM   #20
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
I would think that the Rallye has the downtube filter relocated in order to speed up changes (seconds count for them). Are you in that much of a hurry?
Hey Meat,

On the Rallys like Dakar or Optic etc. the oil is changed in the evenings after the race. There is no hurry at all.
You will never see somebody changing oil during a race.
The factory Teams are changing oil every day.
The private riders sometimes didn't change at all.
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 01:34 AM   #21
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
" I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing,"


What do you expect? That it seizes up at 1 km over the interval? If the oil doesn't get to hot and the piston rings are oke (so the oil doesn't get polluted with fuel) then the oil in a 640 engine can probable do 30000 km/20000miles between changes. 5000 km is really ridiculous. In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why? Because in commercial engines the oil is lab tested, and the service intervals are determined by the lab results. We, as consumers, are scared into money making deals between vehicle manufacturers, their dealers and oil manufacturers.
Tiny service intervals are only beneficiary for the dealers, manufacturers and oil companys, not for you.
KTM gets money (or lower oil prices) from Motorex for kepping up with the tiny services intervals, dealers are glad to sell KTM's because a week later they can already rip you for a oil change.
Hi Soul,

That is simply not right.
That sounds like a big persecution complex.
Please go and get as many information as possible before posting such bullshit.
You can't compare a Motorcycle engine with a car engine.
In our engines the oil has to cope with the engine things and has to act as a gearbox oil.
The biggest problem for the oil are the shear forces in the gear box. (Shear forces is that right? If the teeth of two sprockets act like a pair of scissors)This will crash the molecules very fast. That means the viscosity of the oil decreases with light speed. That is also one reason why you shouldn't use oil with a very low viscosity index in the KTM engine or any engine with engine & gear box in one.
If you want to get more information go to the websites of the big oil companies or universities. Most of them have useful information for free.
If you can read german go to www.motorex.ch -> Tribologie
or http://www.schmierstoff-basics.de/fo...stoff_faq.html
or simply use Google
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 01:36 AM   #22
Converted Soul
On the search dude
 
Converted Soul's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Dordrecht, holland
Oddometer: 288
Some background: the main reason why oil needs to be changed is that the pH levels rise as the oil is contaminated with combustion residue (mainly mosture). In fact the oil becomes acid, and that will eat the bearings. Make sure the piston rings are healthy, and don't do short rides.

The other reason oil has to be replaced is because the long oil molecules are broken up into smaller parts that don't lubricate anymore. Two reasons why that happens:
1. The gearbox breaks the molecule chains. That's why motorcycle oil has shear stabilizers. So use motorcycle oil.
2. The oil becomes to hot.
__________________
KTM Adv 640, 2003
DAF YA-4440
Converted Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 02:00 AM   #23
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
Some background: the main reason why oil needs to be changed is that the pH levels rise as the oil is contaminated with combustion residue (mainly mosture). In fact the oil becomes acid, and that will eat the bearings. Make sure the piston rings are healthy, and don't do short rides.

The other reason oil has to be replaced is because the long oil molecules are broken up into smaller parts that don't lubricate anymore. Two reasons why that happens:
1. The gearbox breaks the molecule chains. That's why motorcycle oil has shear stabilizers. So use motorcycle oil.
2. The oil becomes to hot.
Ok, now I am confused.
If you know something about the whole lubrication story,
why this conspiracy theories blabla?
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 03:12 AM   #24
Carlos M
www.motoxplorers.com
 
Carlos M's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Portugal, Europe
Oddometer: 2,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why?
The lab results may be the way to find out longer intervals. But longer intervals in machines like cranes, compressors and gensets would be due to constant speed/low rev and almost constant load on multicyl nicely balanced diesel engines with comparatively very low specific power. Establishing an analogy of that with a mono 640 running in an off-road motorcycle is just apples and oranges IMHO.

Anyway, a lot of those machines don't go over 500 hours intervals. And manufacturers of these kind of equipment really make an effort to extend said intervals as this sometimes a decisive selling argument.

The thing is that, unless you really can account for things like temps, engine speed and load during the oils usage (like cars and trucks are beggining to do with computerized engine management) there's no way to warrant oil will still be OK after the recommended interval. You are however free to use the manufacturers recommendation, to shorten it or to extend it, if you have the sense to judge what your usage has imposed. That's what most of us do after warranty periods.
__________________
Carlos M.

MotoXplorers.com
Carlos M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 03:16 AM   #25
Converted Soul
On the search dude
 
Converted Soul's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Dordrecht, holland
Oddometer: 288
"to www.motorex.ch -> "


So Happe, you point to the ones that want to sell oil for advise on how often you must change you oil. Daily of course, they say. That's markting, at one time the cigarette industry even promoted smoking as healthy (while they knew it was not). Why, because sigaret manufacturer are intrested in selling sigarettes, not in your health. Just as the motoroil industry is interested in selling oil, not in being the most economical. As long as the market is not interested in long service intervals (as is the motorcycle market) they will keep promoting short service intervals, because that sells oil.

A barrel of crude oil is now? es. 28 US$ per barrel == 42 gallons = 159 liter.
28/159 = 0.176 US$/liter.
Selling price synthetic motorcycle oil: 15 US$ per liter.
That's a 8500% rice between raw material and consumer price.
Black gold, it really is.
__________________
KTM Adv 640, 2003
DAF YA-4440
Converted Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 03:23 AM   #26
Converted Soul
On the search dude
 
Converted Soul's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Dordrecht, holland
Oddometer: 288
Trucks now ride up to 250.000 km on one batch of oil. Oil economy is a issue in commercial engines. So oil manufacturers do promote long service intervals, and do help trucking companies save on oil by testing oil between oil changes.
__________________
KTM Adv 640, 2003
DAF YA-4440
Converted Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 03:40 AM   #27
Converted Soul
On the search dude
 
Converted Soul's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Dordrecht, holland
Oddometer: 288
well said cj1150gs. There are conditions to long service intervals. Short rides, short intervals; hard rides, short intervals; long moderate rides, long intervals.

But oil is much better then we are made to believe. Strange if you think about it: on one side there are the oil manufacturers that say they have a fantastic product, on the other side KTM says the oil is crap by specifing short intervals.

Note that oil manufacturers never use the "longer service interval" product aspect in their advertising; it's not an issue in the consumer world, and they don't want to burn their fingers.
__________________
KTM Adv 640, 2003
DAF YA-4440
Converted Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 03:42 AM   #28
Carlos M
www.motoxplorers.com
 
Carlos M's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Portugal, Europe
Oddometer: 2,813
CSoul,

How often do you change the oil on your 640?
__________________
Carlos M.

MotoXplorers.com
Carlos M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 04:08 AM   #29
Happe
Offroad Nut
 
Happe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Wales UK or Switzerland
Oddometer: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
"to www.motorex.ch -> "
So Happe, you point to the ones that want to sell oil for advise on how often you must change you oil. .
Yes, and as I said also, go and find some information from Universities or free laboratories.
But, yeah you're right. You can't trust the Universities and labs either. They are all paid by the Oil companies.
Damned, what can we do? Sell our bikes and become pedestrians? But the soles of our shoes are made from Oil. Damned. Hmm I think we should kill our selfs, but how without using oil??? Gun? needs oil for maintaining.
Drugs? = chemics = oil
Hanging? ropes = oil
Yeah we should stop breathing until.......
Happe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2004, 04:19 AM   #30
Carlos M
www.motoxplorers.com
 
Carlos M's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Portugal, Europe
Oddometer: 2,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack
I have temp tabs mounted on the oil resevoir and side cases of my bike, in three different areas, .
Mack,

What temp tabs are you using? Do you have a pic somewhere?

TIA,

Carlos
__________________
Carlos M.

MotoXplorers.com
Carlos M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014