Third Oil Filter on an LC4 - Page 4

Flanny · 08-19-2004, 09:07 AM

You guys are funny...four pages...wow...

Mack · 08-19-2004, 09:52 AM

I still say run it to the standard change interval, and perform an ANALysis!

At least you will know how it is holding up, and have an idea of how much life is left. As I mentioned earlier, almost every moto oil analysis (non-LC4) that I have seen has shown the oil to be close to new spec at the factory recomended oil change interval.

Changing at the factory intervals, a guy could go 10,000 kilometers, and still only need to carrying two quarts. (Personally I would change the filters every other time if touring, or try the Scotts filters. After all a used filter, should filter down to a smaller particulate then a new one!)

I still do not have a handle on what fails in LC4 motors, but some of the issues seem to be the cheesy pre-03 left main bearing, starter geartrain, and cam bearing failure caused by the H20 pump drive, none of these seem oil related IMHO. Opened up these motors are pushing 50hp out of one piston displacing just over 600cc, well robust, they just are not going to hold together for that long, that is relative to multis.

Well it is meaningless to this argument.......... I have a buddy who has been a mechanic for twenty plus years, he changed the oil every 3k miles in his two Seca 900s (air cooled) he swapped the filter every other time and ran generic Honda car dino oil, both bikes went over 150k with no oil related failures.

As to the Rallye oil cooler, that thing looks oversized for non-race liquid cooled bike. Overcooled oil is not a good thing either. The LC4 oil resevoir is designed to act as an oil cooler, so if an additional oil cooler was added it would need a thermostat, and IMHO you would want something small. First step would be to add a Sommer supplied oil temp gauge to see what it is running at. (I suspect the Monomaniacs, KTMax, etc. already have a really good idea of what we are discussing, if someone wants to persue this.) There is also a cooler available for Duke IIs and SMCs though the location is a bit low for dirt use. I live in Texas, and have been watching the temp tabs I installed on my bike, at this point I am not the least bit worried. Though I am a bit concerned about my motor fragging as the miles build, but not in a matter related to oil. Sorry for the diatribe.

Ian640 · 08-19-2004, 10:31 AM

> I did finish the 9000 km trip

Slightly off topic I know, but can you briefly decribe your trip Carlos?

> I think you should take more care of the airfilter in the real sandy
> conditions and also avoid all tuning modifications that might decrease the
> longlivity.
> Open exhaust, Open Airbox etc.

Yes, the airbox remains stock. The open exhaust? Well it can be an advantage in some parts of the world, so locals unused to big bikes can hear you coming. Plus a mechanic experienced in desert matters told me an open pipe helps the engine run cooler as it breathes more easily, but then he was trying to sell me an 'open' silencer at the time. A possible disadvantage of a loud exhaust is that it increases discomfort and therefore the range you can tolerate in one day.

> Ehhh, the filter housing yes, but the loo paper???

I meant is the filter you have spare a reusable one like the Scotts (obviously)...

> Here are some interesting reading on oil:

> http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Still trying to understand it...

> cam bearing failure caused by the H20 pump drive

Will somebody please explain this to me? And any solution? Already had an extremely unpleasant and expensive 'water pump seal failed, water mixed with oil, big bang from the motor' experience.

Happe · 08-19-2004, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

So it seems that you (Happe) think the oil COOLER (not extra filter - creeper and overlandr) might be a good idea. Why?

Sorry if it sounds like but I don't think it is a good idea straight away.
If you plan to make a tour through wide and hot deserts and you know that the usual oil change intervals will not fit in here, go for a bigger reservoir.
Normally you don't need to do anything, but maybe it gives you a bit more confidence.
I am talking of a tour not a Rally Raid or any kind of competition.
It is pretty easy to reach an oil temperature of 120-130deg. C.
But to reach more than 150 deg C. is quite a hard job. Even on competitions like the "Le touqet" Ãªt is unusual.
I have a lot of buddies riding the African deserts every year. The lub system was never an issue. The biggest Problem is the Airbox and the possibility of getting Sand into the engine. So spend more time in preparing the airbox and air filters than thinking of extra oil gadgets.

Also be prepared for the bad fuel down there. Try to fit the CDI from the '03 models. Or if you can get, the older 80 octane CDI.

Mack · 08-19-2004, 11:14 AM

Could be BS, but my understanding is that camshaft bearings tend to fail early as the cam drives the H2O pump.

creeper · 08-19-2004, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flanny

You guys are funny...four pages...wow...

Betcha' it gets even funnier before it dies...

Flanny · 08-19-2004, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creeper

Betcha' it gets even funnier before it dies...

Buckster · 08-19-2004, 02:41 PM

The LC4 oil change intervals are really governed by the need to check/adjust valve clearances.

I'm with soul as far as the logivity of modern oil is concerned, it should be fine for 10 000 km at least. For road use. Probably 20 000km in fact.

But I would be less confident for a bike used for off roading, shearing forces are greater when the gearbox is under extreme load plus the chances of contamination from sand etc... is greater.

Buckster · 08-19-2004, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happe

Also be prepared for the bad fuel down there. Try to fit the CDI from the '03 models. Or if you can get, the older 80 octane CDI.

If you look in your owners manual you will see that there is a simple plug disconnect to make the ignition suitable for low octane fuel.

Mack · 08-19-2004, 03:21 PM

Buckster, AFAIK, the selectable timing arrived with TPI on the 03 and newer bikes, it was not available on the older bikes.

Buckster · 08-19-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mack

Buckster, AFAIK, the selectable timing arrived with TPI on the 03 and newer bikes, it was not available on the older bikes.

What can I say? Us '04 owners enjoy the spoils.

Hey Creeper, '04 Adv is sweet, pity you can't have one.

creeper · 08-19-2004, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckster

What can I say? Us '04 owners enjoy the spoils.

Hey Creeper, '04 Adv is sweet, pity you can't have one.

He said '03 and later Bucky, not '04.
As far as I know, your bike differs from a '03 in paint and the front fork/fender/brake system from the 950. I've heard they changed the seat... again, although I can't confirm that.

You may very well have the last of the LC4 based Adventures, period, available anywhere.
I have a feeling that the reason they went to the 950 front end was to commonize parts and reduce inventories of and/or eliminate the previous front end... paving the way to eliminate the LC4 based Adventure and for that matter all the LC4 based bikes.
I think the LC4s will not survive the '06 and possibly even '05 model year.
Something new is on the horizon... possibly a more durable variation of the RFS.

Hey Bucky, why would you take pity on me? I admit the orange paint looks excellent and I do like it more than my own paint... but I don't think it is a pitiable offense.

It sounded a bit mean spirited; I would hope it was not meant to be.

Do you have some sort of issue with me that I am not aware of? Or, is that your idea of humor?

Creeper

Ian640 · 08-20-2004, 04:02 AM

> Also be prepared for the bad fuel down there. Try to fit the
> CDI from the '03 models. Or if you can get, the older 80 octane CDI.
Thanks, I had the older selectable CDI. The probelem was most, if not all of the fuel I found in NW Africa was 90...Which setting to use? Do I detect a long debate on fuel and ignition timing?

> the selectable timing arrived with TPI on the 03
> and newer bikes, it was not available on the older bikes.
See above, you could (and possibly it's still available) buy a switchable unit as an accessory part.

> What can I say? Us '04 owners enjoy the spoils.

How's the double disk in loose off road going?

Cheers.

Carlos M · 08-20-2004, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian640

Slightly off topic I know, but can you briefly decribe your trip Carlos?

Hi Ian,

Hopefully, the day will come in which I'll post a trip report for the picspicspics forum (i've been saying this since April, but...)

Anyway t'was Portugal - Mauritania and return, around 9000 km total. 6000 on road. Pics

here and

here

Here's one slightly related with the topic (notice the sign) :):

Buckster · 08-20-2004, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creeper

It sounded a bit mean spirited; I would hope it was not meant to be.

Do you have some sort of issue with me that I am not aware of? Or, is that your idea of humor?

Creeper

Your shitting me, right?

08-19-2004, 09:07 AM	#46
Flanny Flanny-it-up! Joined: Feb 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe Oddometer: 2,744	You guys are funny...four pages...wow... __________________ Flanny Flanny-it-up!...Check out the FlannyMedia Web Site and Blog at www.FlannyMedia.Com

08-19-2004, 09:52 AM	#47
Mack Gone, but never forgotten. RIP, Mack... Joined: Sep 2002 Location: Austin, Texas USA Native Oregonian Oddometer: 3,797	I still say run it to the standard change interval, and perform an ANALysis! At least you will know how it is holding up, and have an idea of how much life is left. As I mentioned earlier, almost every moto oil analysis (non-LC4) that I have seen has shown the oil to be close to new spec at the factory recomended oil change interval. Changing at the factory intervals, a guy could go 10,000 kilometers, and still only need to carrying two quarts. (Personally I would change the filters every other time if touring, or try the Scotts filters. After all a used filter, should filter down to a smaller particulate then a new one!) I still do not have a handle on what fails in LC4 motors, but some of the issues seem to be the cheesy pre-03 left main bearing, starter geartrain, and cam bearing failure caused by the H20 pump drive, none of these seem oil related IMHO. Opened up these motors are pushing 50hp out of one piston displacing just over 600cc, well robust, they just are not going to hold together for that long, that is relative to multis. Well it is meaningless to this argument.......... I have a buddy who has been a mechanic for twenty plus years, he changed the oil every 3k miles in his two Seca 900s (air cooled) he swapped the filter every other time and ran generic Honda car dino oil, both bikes went over 150k with no oil related failures. As to the Rallye oil cooler, that thing looks oversized for non-race liquid cooled bike. Overcooled oil is not a good thing either. The LC4 oil resevoir is designed to act as an oil cooler, so if an additional oil cooler was added it would need a thermostat, and IMHO you would want something small. First step would be to add a Sommer supplied oil temp gauge to see what it is running at. (I suspect the Monomaniacs, KTMax, etc. already have a really good idea of what we are discussing, if someone wants to persue this.) There is also a cooler available for Duke IIs and SMCs though the location is a bit low for dirt use. I live in Texas, and have been watching the temp tabs I installed on my bike, at this point I am not the least bit worried. Though I am a bit concerned about my motor fragging as the miles build, but not in a matter related to oil. Sorry for the diatribe. __________________ Ã–sterreichische MotorrÃ¤der und deutsche Autos. Wie wundervoll kann das Leben sein

08-19-2004, 11:14 AM	#50
Mack Gone, but never forgotten. RIP, Mack... Joined: Sep 2002 Location: Austin, Texas USA Native Oregonian Oddometer: 3,797	Could be BS, but my understanding is that camshaft bearings tend to fail early as the cam drives the H2O pump. __________________ Ã–sterreichische MotorrÃ¤der und deutsche Autos. Wie wundervoll kann das Leben sein

08-19-2004, 03:21 PM	#55
Mack Gone, but never forgotten. RIP, Mack... Joined: Sep 2002 Location: Austin, Texas USA Native Oregonian Oddometer: 3,797	Buckster, AFAIK, the selectable timing arrived with TPI on the 03 and newer bikes, it was not available on the older bikes. __________________ Ã–sterreichische MotorrÃ¤der und deutsche Autos. Wie wundervoll kann das Leben sein

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08-19-2004, 10:31 AM	#48
Ian640 ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2004 Location: UK Oddometer: 243	> I did finish the 9000 km trip Slightly off topic I know, but can you briefly decribe your trip Carlos? > I think you should take more care of the airfilter in the real sandy > conditions and also avoid all tuning modifications that might decrease the > longlivity. > Open exhaust, Open Airbox etc. Yes, the airbox remains stock. The open exhaust? Well it can be an advantage in some parts of the world, so locals unused to big bikes can hear you coming. Plus a mechanic experienced in desert matters told me an open pipe helps the engine run cooler as it breathes more easily, but then he was trying to sell me an 'open' silencer at the time. A possible disadvantage of a loud exhaust is that it increases discomfort and therefore the range you can tolerate in one day. > Ehhh, the filter housing yes, but the loo paper??? I meant is the filter you have spare a reusable one like the Scotts (obviously)... > Here are some interesting reading on oil: > http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html Still trying to understand it... > cam bearing failure caused by the H20 pump drive Will somebody please explain this to me? And any solution? Already had an extremely unpleasant and expensive 'water pump seal failed, water mixed with oil, big bang from the motor' experience.

08-19-2004, 02:41 PM	#53
Buckster Banned Joined: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta GA or London UK Oddometer: 1,003	The LC4 oil change intervals are really governed by the need to check/adjust valve clearances. I'm with soul as far as the logivity of modern oil is concerned, it should be fine for 10 000 km at least. For road use. Probably 20 000km in fact. But I would be less confident for a bike used for off roading, shearing forces are greater when the gearbox is under extreme load plus the chances of contamination from sand etc... is greater.

08-20-2004, 04:02 AM	#58
Ian640 ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2004 Location: UK Oddometer: 243	> Also be prepared for the bad fuel down there. Try to fit the > CDI from the '03 models. Or if you can get, the older 80 octane CDI. Thanks, I had the older selectable CDI. The probelem was most, if not all of the fuel I found in NW Africa was 90...Which setting to use? Do I detect a long debate on fuel and ignition timing? > the selectable timing arrived with TPI on the 03 > and newer bikes, it was not available on the older bikes. See above, you could (and possibly it's still available) buy a switchable unit as an accessory part. > What can I say? Us '04 owners enjoy the spoils. How's the double disk in loose off road going? Cheers.