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Old 04-05-2012, 02:03 PM   #1216
RaY YreKa
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Originally Posted by DireWolf View Post
A proper sport touring machine requires a belt drive by definition.
You funster you.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:43 AM   #1217
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Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
So, let's say Motus steals ALL Multistrada sales. They may sell 500 units. Is that enough to keep them in business? Perhaps, but that's only 15 mil in revenue, which seems pretty small...
I can't be sure - but I don't think Motus is planning on even making 500 bikes the first year. And I'm guessing they don't need to steal Multi buyers exclusively. Again - just a guess - but my thoughts are that there will be a few fans of 'Merican bikes that will come over and take the plunge to the sportier side of riding - plenty of rich Motor Company faithful begging for a sportier ride IMHO... I'll bet a lot of American muscle car folk will love this as well - plenty motorheads out there with cash to burn.

I can't help but laugh when a bunch of us sit around and speculate what they need to net to stay in business. None of us know, none of us will probably ever know - why even bother speculating? Who knows what their design, dealer, upstart, prototype, media, etc. costs were? Who knows what returns their investors are expecting? Who knows how soon they're expecting to turn a profit or pay off investors?

I'm absolutely positive that they thought long and hard about price. I suppose their competition with other bikes isn't really based on price - I'm guessing it's more that people will want something that original, new, and different. If you really compare this to a ZX-14, R12RS, etc, - I'm guessing you're not their target customer. Don't like it? Don't buy it. They're not forcing, not even asking you to buy it. Capitalism baby - go and buy a different bike if you think it's a better buy for you - as they even publicly stated on their FB page to a pissed off fan.

If the bike doesn't sell as well as they need - the price can always come down. It's much easier to move the price down than up. Don't get me wrong - I really want one of these bikes, and was hoping/wishing/praying for the MSRP to be a bit lower, but I'm not shocked at the price, and I'm certainly not insulting the company for their decision.


As far as the chain/shaft debate:
I used to really like shaft drives - until my K12S's shit itself. Add me to the list of 'full circlers' that once again don't mind a chain. Simple, cheap, easy, visible, and available. Also, chains are light (as there's so much complaining going on about the heft of modern ST's) and have the best power transmission. I'm not really set either form; both have their allure (I'll probably just exclude BMW's from my wishlist).

I love it - I want one. The bike felt great to sit on, sounds amazing, hauls ass, should have low maintenance, and is run by a great group of people. I'm a fan - I just need to find another 20k laying around...
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:53 AM   #1218
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Sorry, but you can't just move the price from 30k to 20k. They have committed and it's just not reasonable on any level to reclaim that. To put it simply, it just raises too many questions. First, the customers will ask why? What's wrong with the bike? Second, what do they say to the people who paid 30k? You see?

My understanding - and I'm always willing to be proven wrong - is that they priced the bike in part on the fact that Harleys sold for 30+. If that's true, it's stupid. Dumb because alot of Harleys sell for alot less, and also try to haul a Harley owner off his chrome.

This is supposed to be a Sport-Tourer and like bikes all sell for less than 20K. BMW, Triumph, Ducati, Motoguzzi, the main competition all compete for less than 20K. And those are bikes not to scoff at. I'd love to buy American, as would a lot of others, but this is retro to a time America couldn't compete. This is a throw back to when the Japanese bikes kicked ass, except an American bike is throwing down the challenge and there are a bunch of European AND Japanese bikes in the fray. Sad, but a fact of life. They might meet their goal of 300 bikes, then what?
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:09 AM   #1219
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Originally Posted by Krasniewski View Post
I suppose their competition with other bikes isn't really based on price - I'm guessing it's more that people will want something that original, new, and different.
Yep.

And is the price even that bad?

The "R" model, at $37K, is $15K more than a Multistrada 1200S Pikes Peak in the US.

The Pikes Peak has mainly cosmetic (paint and carbon fibre panels) upgrades on the generic Multistrada "S" touring model, costs an extra $2K and drops the panniers and centrestand. Point is, people buy them - and then buy panniers for them.

Pikes Peak:



MST-R



So, the basic spec level is similar. Ohlins NIX fork, check. Ohlins TTX shock, check. Okay, there is no from-the-saddle suspension adjustment on the Motus but every adjuster is in easy reach and there are no servo motors to fail - a common source of complaint on the Multi boards.

Brembo monobloc brakes - oh yeah, the Multi isn't quite there with those. Forged wheels - hmm, the Multi makes do with cast. Not a big deal in either case from a performance viewpoint, but costly if you wanted to go there.

Panniers are part of the Motus package, and there's a full sized bag either side (unlike the Multi's ex-factory set-up), and they are a generic product, so relatively cheap to replace, but still look okay.

Centrestand stock on the Motus. And it looks like owners will be able to change the oil with bike on the centrestand. (Unlike Multi owners, who must remove the centrestand from the bike in order to get the old oil out. Strange, but apparently true.)

ABS and traction control? The Duc is a clear winner here.

Engine? Well, Duc engines feel great and go well, but the Motus does have an extra 450cc and 35 more hp.

So, the Motus justifies an extra few grand on spec alone.

Then there are the service costs. Valve check and cam belt change every 15,000 miles for the Duc. Very conservatively, $500 each time. Nil for the Motus. If you do 15,000 miles a year for 10 years, that's $5K.

I know you have to have the $37K to begin with. Just saying that as a value for money proposition, the Motus doesn't look a hell of a lot worse to me than that Duc. (And I like Ducs.)
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:32 AM   #1220
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Originally Posted by ADVBMR View Post
Sorry, but you can't just move the price from 30k to 20k. They have committed and it's just not reasonable on any level to reclaim that. To put it simply, it just raises too many questions. First, the customers will ask why? What's wrong with the bike? Second, what do they say to the people who paid 30k? You see?
Actually, yes, you can. The numbers you provided are an extreme example, and a drop of 1/3 is unrealistic, but the Honda VFR1200 MSRP's at 16 grand, and now they sell for 11 at dealers all over. No questions were raised - they just didn't sell b/c they were overpriced. I'm not saying Motus should or will do such a price adjustment, but they can. A drop of $5,000 would certainly not be surprising - and I doubt anyone that already bought one would make a big fuss over it. In fact, they would probably bring in more customers and dealers, assuming they can produce enough bikes. Rebates and discounts that big are offered all the time w/o officially dropping the MSRP. EDIT: Come to think about it - Moto Guzzi's 8v Griso got a tweak and official MSRP price drop of $2,000 this year as well when they came out with the SE.


Quote:
My understanding - and I'm always willing to be proven wrong - is that they priced the bike in part on the fact that Harleys sold for 30+. If that's true, it's stupid. Dumb because alot of Harleys sell for alot less, and also try to haul a Harley owner off his chrome.
Not that I'm an expert, but I've never heard this - is this based on internet banter or something that someone from Motus actually said?

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:27 AM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Krasniewski View Post
Actually, yes, you can. The numbers you provided are an extreme example, and a drop of 1/3 is unrealistic, but the Honda VFR1200 MSRP's at 16 grand, and now they sell for 11 at dealers all over. No questions were raised - they just didn't sell b/c they were overpriced. I'm not saying Motus should or will do such a price adjustment, but they can. A drop of $5,000 would certainly not be surprising - and I doubt anyone that already bought one would make a big fuss over it. In fact, they would probably bring in more customers and dealers, assuming they can produce enough bikes. Rebates and discounts that big are offered all the time w/o officially dropping the MSRP. EDIT: Come to think about it - Moto Guzzi's 8v Griso got a tweak and official MSRP price drop of $2,000 this year as well when they came out with the SE.
Dropping the price to what most were expecting ($20-25k) would be a $6k to 11k drop in price for the base model. I don't think a $2k drop is going to do much to add people to the buyer list. The price is going to have to hit a particular price point to get more people interested (sub $25k?). A major drop in price instantly devalues the bikes you sold. I know I would be pissed to buy in early only to have my bike worth much less a year or two later. You can't take any features away from the bike to justify the lower price as it's stripped down out of the box. You can't throw in a bunch of the 'extras' as they don't really add that much value. $28k with all the 'extras' thrown in? I'd have to really think hard about that one, but it's still a tough nut to crack.

I think they either spent way too much money on R&D or totally blew the price point. Going from $25k base to $31k base cut out a very large portion of riders (like myself) who were very seriously looking to clear out the garage for MST space. That extra $6k is just too hard to swallow on a bike like this. That's a Multistrada and used Griso money.

The VFR's price had to drop because the bikes were sitting on show room floors. Motus doesn't have that problem right now. They have more orders than they intended on filling this year (original target was 200 py, but they have been kind of hush of late). They also have the ability to slow down production if sales start to taper off as they are hand built from parts suppliers.

The new Griso price drop to 12,500 was based on the weak dollar and the fact that no one paid $14k for a griso except for a few who had to have the SE. Most paid much less on year old models or paid a bunch less on used models (like I did). The Griso isn't worth $14k, but the SE is for sure worth $12k in my eyes. That starts taking sales from other naked models...something Guzzi needs right now. Then the NTX hits the floors this year, then the Cali1400 next. Should be an interesting couple of years for Guzzi.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:03 AM   #1222
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Originally Posted by kirb View Post
Dropping the price to what most were expecting ($20-25k) would be a $6k to 11k drop in price for the base model.
I don't know what *most* were expecting, but I was guessing 25-30k.


Quote:
I don't think a $2k drop is going to do much to add people to the buyer list.
I agree - but 2k on a 14k motorcycle (Griso), in terms of percentage, is suddenly over 4k on a bike like the Motus - that's a game changer a few people, granted, not for most. Again, not that they will have to even consider it.


Quote:
The price is going to have to hit a particular price point to get more people interested (sub $25k?).
Again, just shooting from the hip here, but even if they wanted to, I doubt they produce enough bikes to satiate the masses. I'm guessing they keep the price and quality high and keep the volume low, and they knew they were going to do this from the beginning. I don't think it was a bike intended for the masses.


Quote:
A major drop in price instantly devalues the bikes you sold. I know I would be pissed to buy in early only to have my bike worth much less a year or two later. You can't take any features away from the bike to justify the lower price as it's stripped down out of the box. You can't throw in a bunch of the 'extras' as they don't really add that much value. $28k with all the 'extras' thrown in? I'd have to really think hard about that one, but it's still a tough nut to crack.
Agreed. That's not to say it won't happen though. Just think of all the (dozen?) VFR12 owners that bought the bike at 16k++. Sucks for them, but they prob still love their bike. Just more reason to keep it long term, I guess.


Quote:
I think they either spent way too much money on R&D or totally blew the price point. Going from $25k base to $31k base cut out a very large portion of riders (like myself) who were very seriously looking to clear out the garage for MST space. That extra $6k is just too hard to swallow on a bike like this. That's a Multistrada and used Griso money.
Agree again, but we may not be the target customers, I guess.



Quote:
The VFR's price had to drop because the bikes were sitting on show room floors.
Correct - I think I wasn't clear when I said the price could drop... I didn't mean to say that it could/would drop prior to the first run - I mean it'll drop if it sits and doesn't sell. With the huge drop in what VFR's are going for, the line is either doomed, or Honda's eating some of the loss. Dealer's will obviously not order more with this sales performance, and I imagine Motus will have to do the same thing if bikes don't sell and they want to survive... but...


Quote:
Motus doesn't have that problem right now. They have more orders than they intended on filling this year (original target was 200 py, but they have been kind of hush of late).
That's fantastic news, imo, and a big congrats to the company if that's true (not calling you a liar, I just hadn't hear that before!). When I grew up reading about Corvettes, which I love, GM would always say they were sold out for the year... they I'd see them sitting on showroom floors. Later I learned that "sold out" meant "sold out to dealers." Not sure if that applies here or not - just sayin'.


Quote:
They also have the ability to slow down production if sales start to taper off as they are hand built from parts suppliers.
Well - unless slowing down production would put them under. I don't know the numbers, but speeding up production with less profit is the other side of the curve, that's all I'm sayin'.


Quote:
The new Griso price drop to 12,500 was based on the weak dollar and the fact that no one paid $14k for a griso except for a few who had to have the SE. Most paid much less on year old models or paid a bunch less on used models (like I did).
Was 14k due to the weak dollar, then went to 12k due to a) the dying Euro and b) nobody wants a 14k naked bike in states, I thought... Maybe I got it wrong though.


Quote:
The Griso isn't worth $14k, but the SE is for sure worth $12k in my eyes. That starts taking sales from other naked models...something Guzzi needs right now. Then the NTX hits the floors this year, then the Cali1400 next. Should be an interesting couple of years for Guzzi.
Amen.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:46 AM   #1223
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[QUOTE=Krasniewski;18392037That's fantastic news, imo, and a big congrats to the company if that's true (not calling you a liar, I just hadn't hear that before!). When I grew up reading about Corvettes, which I love, GM would always say they were sold out for the year... they I'd see them sitting on showroom floors. Later I learned that "sold out" meant "sold out to dealers." Not sure if that applies here or not - just sayin'.

Was 14k due to the weak dollar, then went to 12k due to a) the dying Euro and b) nobody wants a 14k naked bike in states, I thought... Maybe I got it wrong though. [/QUOTE]

I have been following threads like this from day one, videos posted, questions asked, etc. Motus made statements early on that shed much more light on the plan than they have been doing in the last year. Before the protos came out they were very vocal on the number of units per year, GDI, the basic design aspects, why it didn't have this or that, etc. After the shakeout tour the public comments and plans tapered off. GDI being dropped was discussed early on in the shakedown tour and then hardly discussed and even was removed from the website long before they ever made the statement it would be dropped.

Some comments made were somewhat vauge, but orders would be shipped to the refundable deposit holders in the fall and they had enough of those to fill out the 2012 year, but now that model is going to be a 2013. Most other details have been limited since the price announcement. I think they production numbers will be based a lot on how the bike is received after it hits the street. Too many negative comments from the media could sink high end sales.

The higher Griso price tag was on US models since it showed up here as a 4V model in '07. LOTS of '07s were left over and sitting in storage until '09 or '10. You could get a 4V on heavy discount until recently which hurt the resale quite a bit (this is how I obtained my 4V with only 2500 miles for less than half price of new). The 8V models came out in '09 and really didn't start selling until the SE came to the US last year. Lots of leftover '09 and '10 can be had of the 8V models at deep discounts. This is on a bike that has low sale numbers as it is.

It's amazing what wire wheels, flat green paint, and a leather seat can do for your image. SEs are a sought aftter Griso (for good reason) and the price drop should really make them tempting to people who know what they are.
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:46 PM   #1224
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Actually bikes like a Boxer,Guzzi,CX 500 or ST1200/1300 have a crankshaft that goes north/south with the axis of the motorcycle like also the MOTUS.They don't build up any gyroscopic force from the crankshaft like a big V-twin or inline 4 will,which makes it easier to turn direction.
With the N/S crank there is no additional loss of power because there is no need for another 90 degree gear at the clutch/output shaft.Only the MOTUS needs it because their automotive engineers are either too stupid or don't know how to design a proper driveshaft.
Hey even Triumph doesn't know how but at least they were smart enough to let the japanese do it for them who designed and build the new Explorer shaftdrive.
But for 37K,a "premium bike" that is no sport bike but a (sport)Tourer without belt/driveshaft,no ABS and TC,that is either very brave,very naive or very stupid...
And yes I had a 2005 GS and never lubed any splines because it is not called for !
Changed the oil (180cc) every 12 K miles.At 80K I replaced the shaft for $800 because I abused it on washboard roads in mexico and sold the bike...No big deal at all.
At least 4 chains and 8 sprockets to change would have been more expensise and a much bigger pain with cleaning,lubricating and adjusting...
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:07 PM   #1225
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Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
Actually bikes like a Boxer,Guzzi,CX 500 or ST1200/1300 have a crankshaft that goes north/south with the axis of the motorcycle like also the MOTUS.They don't build up any gyroscopic force from the crankshaft like a big V-twin or inline 4 will,which makes it easier to turn direction.
Newton's Third is not suspended because the bike has a longitudinally mounted engine. Particaually in the case of the V-4s they build MORE because usually the configuration requires a heavier crank.

All that science and shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
With the N/S crank there is no additional loss of power because there is no need for another 90 degree gear at the clutch/output shaft.Only the MOTUS needs it because their automotive engineers are either too stupid or don't know how to design a proper driveshaft.
Umm you change the direction at the counter-shaft or at the axle, in this case the a they chose the counter-shaft, which means a lighter driveline, less drive lash, and a better suspension response since there isn't a rear differential adding un-sprung weight.

Its an engineering decision, ...by people that understand high school physics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
Hey even Triumph doesn't know how but at least they were smart enough to let the japanese do it for them who designed and build the new Explorer shaftdrive.
Except that they have been putting shafts on the Rocket III for better than ten years now, and the Tiger Explorer has a TRAVERSE mounted engine, so they are in effect changing the direction of thrust twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
But for 37K,a "premium bike" that is no sport bike but a (sport)Tourer without belt/driveshaft,no ABS and TC,that is either very brave,very naive or very stupid...
Again, we know it isn't a BMW so what.


Anymore mindless prattle? I have all night, literally.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:30 AM   #1226
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I had to change the rear drive on my BMW K1200RS at 68,000 miles. At the same time the clutch was both worn and destroyed when the rear main seal went. $3000 later I was riding again.

My GSX-R 1000, during the same 68,000 mile of riding, with its antiquated chain drive system used 4 chain and sprocket sets, counting the original and one clutch basket. Total cost: about $225 per chain and sprocket set and $150 for the basket and install. I guess that means chains are cheaper than shaft $875 to $3,000. That my experience. That and other stuff make me stay away from BMW. They are not IMHO built now to the same bomb proof spec that they were during the days of the airheads, whereas other manufacturers have stepped up their game considerably, BMW has slipped.

Boxer-lust take off your blue and white propeller glasses and realize that technology has moved on from the chains you knew years ago. Go out and ride - its time better spent than pissing in the wind.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:55 AM   #1227
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I don't give a shit who rides what but facts are facts...
I had never any problems with driveshafts on my beemers but would change them as preventive maintenance around the 80K mark...
Chains are for bicycles or dirtbikes...
As for the V4 is makes a big difference if the engine is mounted like a VFR or ST when it comes to power loss with a shaft (direct no power loss for the ST) and how the crank-gyro affects handling...(again longitudional has the advantage)Otherwise a V4 (like in the VFR) builds up as much gyroscopic forces like any inline-4...
And again a "premium-bike" in a premium segment for 37K that is no high-end-sportbike with a chain but without ABS&TC is a joke...
For 37K + tax you can buy a S1000RR and a K1600GT and have both fronts covered ! Sport & Touring..
Thats the sad reality for MOTUS...
For half the price,feasible with higher production-#,a belt or better shaft,ABS and TC it could have been a success...
Remember,you read it here first...
Enough said !
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:07 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
I don't give a shit who rides what but facts are facts...
I had never any problems with driveshafts on my beemers but would change them as preventive maintenance around the 80K mark...
Well - plenty of us have had major problems with shaft drives... just sayin'... your single experience isn't exactly what they based their engineering on.



Quote:
For 37K + tax you can buy a S1000RR and a K1600GT and have both fronts covered ! Sport & Touring..
Right, so the point of the Motus is that you won't NEED two bikes...




Quote:
For half the price,feasible with higher production-#,a belt or better shaft,ABS and TC it could have been a success...
Remember,you read it here first...

OK, first off - a belt drive on a 185hp sport-tourer? You must be joking... Secondly, I can't believe you're already saying it won't be a success - months before the first bikes are even delivered. And third - definitions of success vary... I think they'll stay in business with what they have. I'm sure for them - that's success.


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Enough said !
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:11 AM   #1229
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Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Yep.

And is the price even that bad?

The "R" model, at $37K, is $15K more than a Multistrada 1200S Pikes Peak in the US.

The Pikes Peak has mainly cosmetic (paint and carbon fibre panels) upgrades on the generic Multistrada "S" touring model, costs an extra $2K and drops the panniers and centrestand. Point is, people buy them - and then buy panniers for them.
Good comparison. My brother is a Duc nut. Has a Monster S4RS, a 1098 Tri Colore, and last year also purchased a Pike's Peak Multi. By the time he was done getting bags and all of the other accessories he wanted (including having the bags painted to match the bike) He spent $27k. That's Motus territory, and he didn't bat an eye. Just wrote a check. Furthermore, he willingly followed me off road on my Tiger 800 last summer in the smoky mountains.

While I personally think Motus initialized about 5 grand higher than they should have on each model, it is clear that the average advrider has no concept of the way people who spend this kind of money on vehicles tend to think. I know this from my years working for Porsche, from 10 years of watching the spending habits of motorcycle purchasers across three Harley stores, and though I'm not absolutely loaded I know it from my own purchasing habits. The MOTUS costs about the same as the money I just spent last winter on a Shelby GT500. I don't think one would be any more fun than the other, and had the MOTUS really sucked me in I would have spent the money on it and not thought twice about it.

And that's what the cheap bastards here at advposer miss over and over again. Most people who will drop 25 - 35k on a motorcycle aren't riddled with buyer's remorse lamenting every penny that ever left their wallet. In fact they aren't even giving the money a 2nd thought. Instead they're usually out enjoying the things they buy with that money.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:13 AM   #1230
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Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
I don't give a shit who rides what but facts are facts...
I had never any problems with driveshafts on my beemers but would change them as preventive maintenance around the 80K mark...
Chains are for bicycles or dirtbikes...
As for the V4 is makes a big difference if the engine is mounted like a VFR or ST when it comes to power loss with a shaft (direct no power loss for the ST) and how the crank-gyro affects handling...(again longitudional has the advantage)Otherwise a V4 (like in the VFR) builds up as much gyroscopic forces like any inline-4...
And again a "premium-bike" in a premium segment for 37K that is no high-end-sportbike with a chain but without ABS&TC is a joke...
For 37K + tax you can buy a S1000RR and a K1600GT and have both fronts covered ! Sport & Touring..
Thats the sad reality for MOTUS...
For half the price,feasible with higher production-#,a belt or better shaft,ABS and TC it could have been a success...
Remember,you read it here first...
Enough said !
There's really only one way to end this discussion:

You're right. the MOTUS is crap. Every bike that doesn't fall into favor with you is crap. Screw logic, science, engineering, and absolute fact. You're just right. How can the rest of us ever repent for our sins?
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