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Old 11-13-2009, 04:10 PM   #46
Jud OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni
When properly torqued, the hole of the link shouldn't be taking much if any of the loads.
I'm in this camp. There are plenty of bikes out there with aluminium links from the factory. I have never seen an aluminium link like the one in the picture and I have seen a bunch. The OP noted that his shock crapped out so I'm assuming it was bottoming and topping out due to no rebound or compression damping and {if I remember right} he was doing pretty heavy washboard. If those two assumptions are correct,,, there is a damned good reason the links failed. Would it have failed had the links been steel?? Probably not but I'm betting the steel ones would have been damaged.

In other words,,,, I would confidently run aluminium links on my DL650 but would watch them if the going got extreme. But hey,,, I run shinko tires and wear 100$ at times so I must be crazy anyway.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrxinpa
I dont care what Grade Aluminum you use the hole is going to get wallowed from all the hammering on it. Eventually its structural integrity will be compromised and your ass is going to hit the ground. Stay away from Aluminum Raising and Lowering Links Period. If it aint Steel dont Use them..

Disclaimer: Unless your pansy ass never takes the bike off road or uses it to anywhere near its capabilities.

Sincerely
Jeff
Mrxinpa..
"When properly torqued, the hole of the link shouldn't be taking much if any of the loads."

Absolutely right.

From the ASM material data sheet :

Aluminum 7075-T6; 7075-T651



Material Notes:
General 7075 characteristics and uses (from Alcoa): Very high strength material used for highly stressed structural parts. The T7351 temper offers improved stress-corrosion cracking resistance.
Applications: Aircraft fittings, gears and shafts, fuse parts, meter shafts and gears, missile parts, regulating valve parts, worm gears, keys, aircraft, aerospace and defense applications; bike frames, all terrain vehicle (ATV) sprockets.


Better think twice before I put my pansy ass on a plane next. Tony T is running them on his wee, I think he can stand by his form on using it to its anywhere near its capabilities.

Cheers, badmanners.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_4ce
So what does the raising links do to rear suspension travel? Does is stay the same or does it increase it? Does it add extra stress or strain to the shock?

Is there a source for steel rear raising links?

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to make yourself some out of some steel bar from Home Depot? What would be the length need for 1" raising links?
To raise the bike, you run a shorter link than stock...this changes the leverage on the shock, so the shock will behave as if it now has a slightly stiffer spring. A higher effective spring rate also helps a bit with ride height, and can be good if you carry luggage or a passenger.

Running different links on off road bikes, to dial in ride height or seat height for a shorter rider is common - more often than not people are trying to lower the bike. In that case, they find their rear spring rate feels a bit to soft. I test rode a V-strom with lowering links just a couple days ago. In simply sitting on it, (two up), and then riding it, I really felt the spring rates were way to soft.

With the short link to raise the bike, (I am not an engineer type...so dont quote me on this!), the forces applied to the shock are not "amplified" (less leverage due to shorter link) as much as the long link - but fact is, you are still applying the same forces ulitmately.

Suspension travel should not change - the shock only has so much maximum shaft travel before it bottoms out.

Changes in effective spring rates via changes in leverage from the links can have an impact on how well or not so well, the compression or rebound dampening rates work in the shock.

I know a few guys that have made their own links for dirt bikes (out of aluminum of all things...) - but they are the engineer, CAD Cam machinist types - ie they know what they are doing. I would in no way consider trying to make my own, particulary out of steel (or other) stock I did not really know the strength of.

I think the original poster asked about sources for having a longer shock made. Try Works Performance http://www.worksperformance.com/html/home.html . their application chart: http://www.worksperformance.com/pdf/...ide/street.pdf shows they have shocks for the DL650 and 1000 available. While it is now many years ago, I had them custom build a shock for a Kawasaki Concours with a sidecar. They dialed it all in exactly to my specs and needs. I am sure they could do likewise for a Strom - just tell them you want to raise the bike x" etc. They are not cheap shocks, but very well built. They will set up valving and spring rates to your weight, riding style, typical conditions etc.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:59 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike

Suspension travel should not change - the shock only has so much maximum shaft travel before it bottoms out.
Since leverage changes, wheel travel should change too, IMHO.
If eg shorter links result to an 'effectively' 10% stiffer spring, then that should mean that the wheel travel is now 10% less. Only reason the spring seems stiffer, is because the same spring travel works against a lesser wheel travel.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:16 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas
Since leverage changes, wheel travel should change too, IMHO.
If eg shorter links result to an 'effectively' 10% stiffer spring, then that should mean that the wheel travel is now 10% less. Only reason the spring seems stiffer, is because the same spring travel works against a lesser wheel travel.
nope...not true. Same shock - simply takes more force to compress the spring on that shock. It still has same shock shaft, same amount that shaft can move before it bottoms. So say 100 lbs of force before would cause shaft to move 1", with an effectively higher spring rate 2 times as stiff, 200lbs of force would cause it to move that same 1". that first example is what would be described as a 100 inch pound spring, the second - hold on here for the advanced math.. a 200 inch pound spring. Conversely, placing the 100lb load on the 200 inch pound spring, it would compress (theoretically) 1/2".

If what you are saying is true, then all these years when I have I changed spring rates on my off road bikes I suddenly lost suspension travel. If that is so, why then can I still bottom the suspension, and it can still extend the same?

If you want, I can get a friend of mine that is a suspension engineer to chime in. (he works in automotive, but races MX and off road motorcycles)

(edit - one qualifier - this is assuming there is no coil bind occurring limiting travel. A properly designed spring for the amount of shaft travle would not coil bind)
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:24 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas
why is it the wrong type of bike since he likes it so much?
He has a dream, a wee strom with 20cm of suspension travel.
Why is the GS boxer line so much better?
The GS isnt so much better,both bikes are huge street bikes with fairings,if they land on you they can easily break bones or smash you flat. Too heavy with limp suspension,not enough ground clearance,too many breakable parts and any big single even a KLR would kick their ass on any kind of trail.
Not that theres any thing wrong about loving a strom for dirt use,as a long time dirt rider it makes less then no sense to me to set up a street bike for dirt.
Its what they had to do back in the 60's but there are numerous better alternatives. My DR 650 seems too damn big to me for any kind of decent trail.
Only because it is.
A Gold Wing can be ridden on fireroads as can any bike made,no real reason to do so but it could be fun.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:24 PM   #52
mousitsas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike
nope...not true. Same shock - simply takes more force to compress the spring on that shock. It still has same shock shaft, same amount that shaft can move before it bottoms. So say 100 lbs of force before would cause shaft to move 1", with an effectively higher spring rate 2 times as stiff, 200lbs of force would cause it to move that same 1". that first example is what would be described as a 100 inch pound spring, the second - hold on here for the advanced math.. a 200 inch pound spring. Conversely, placing the 100lb load on the 200 inch pound spring, it would compress (theoretically) 1/2".

If what you are saying is true, then all these years when I have I changed spring rates on my off road bikes I suddenly lost suspension travel. If that is so, why then can I still bottom the suspension, and it can still extend the same?

If you want, I can get a friend of mine that is a suspension engineer to chime in. (he works in automotive, but races MX and off road motorcycles)
When you change leverage in a suspension, you are not changing spring rate, you just change the ratio of the piston movement to the wheel movement. So, even if piston movement remains the same, this piston is now related to the wheel with a different lever ratio, yielding different 'effective' (note the inverted comas) spring ratio and different movement ratio between piston and wheel.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:26 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike
nope...not true. Same shock - simply takes more force to compress the spring on that shock. It still has same shock shaft, same amount that shaft can move before it bottoms. So say 100 lbs of force before would cause shaft to move 1", with an effectively higher spring rate 2 times as stiff, 200lbs of force would cause it to move that same 1". that first example is what would be described as a 100 inch pound spring, the second - hold on here for the advanced math.. a 200 inch pound spring. Conversely, placing the 100lb load on the 200 inch pound spring, it would compress (theoretically) 1/2".

If what you are saying is true, then all these years when I have I changed spring rates on my off road bikes I suddenly lost suspension travel. If that is so, why then can I still bottom the suspension, and it can still extend the same?

If you want, I can get a friend of mine that is a suspension engineer to chime in. (he works in automotive, but races MX and off road motorcycles)

(edit - one qualifier - this is assuming there is no coil bind occurring limiting travel. A properly designed spring for the amount of shaft travle would not coil bind)
Same shock sure, but the leverage has changes and that's part of the linkage. I think what he says is worth thinking about instead of dismissing off hand. The shock isn't the only peice of the geometry.

Swingarm, Linkage, dogbones, shock.

FWIW I think the actual "change" in spring rate is probably minimal, and as such the change in travel would be as well.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:34 PM   #54
mousitsas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger
The GS isnt so much better,both bikes are huge street bikes with fairings,if they land on you they can easily break bones or smash you flat. Too heavy with limp suspension,not enough ground clearance,too many breakable parts and any big single even a KLR would kick their ass on any kind of trail.
Not that theres any thing wrong about loving a strom for dirt use,as a long time dirt rider it makes less then no sense to me to set up a street bike for dirt.
Its what they had to do back in the 60's but there are numerous better alternatives. My DR 650 seems too damn big to me for any kind of decent trail.
Only because it is.
A Gold Wing can be ridden on fireroads as can any bike made,no real reason to do so but it could be fun.
I have exhausted to death (and vice versa) an R1150GS, so I know very well what you are talking about! However, I have to give credit to this bike for its versatility. Very comfy on the road and not a complete whale off it, in the sense that it will manage some. If only it was 50kgs lighter!

And here comes this crazy idea which is not very crazy after all. You have a wee storm. Assuming you are happy with its power, why not fit a 20cm-travel quality suspension system front and back plus 18/21 wheels?
You end up with a downsized GS, just as comfy, better off the road, still a twin, 10hp less and about 40kgs lighter. Which other bike in the market can provide you with that? (for the buck)

mousitsas screwed with this post 11-13-2009 at 05:54 PM
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni
Same shock sure, but the leverage has changes and that's part of the linkage. I think what he says is worth thinking about instead of dismissing off hand. The shock isn't the only peice of the geometry.

Swingarm, Linkage, dogbones, shock.

FWIW I think the actual "change" in spring rate is probably minimal, and as such the change in travel would be as well.
ok - point well taken...but note I commented about shaft travel - not wheel travel. I realize the OP was more interested in wheel travel. I do know on linkaged off road bikes (my son's Kaw for example), that I have had to up spring rates (when lowering) to keep race and static sag dialed in correctly. Also - I will admit - I was thinking of the geometry on my last several off road bikes - KTMs. No linkages. Life is simpler that way.

And FWIW, if I had dismissed it off hand, I would of simply said he was wrong and offered no explanation of my position.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:59 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike
ok - point well taken...but note I commented about shaft travel - not wheel travel. I realize the OP was more interested in wheel travel. I do know on linkaged off road bikes (my son's Kaw for example), that I have had to up spring rates (when lowering) to keep race and static sag dialed in correctly. Also - I will admit - I was thinking of the geometry on my last several off road bikes - KTMs. No linkages. Life is simpler that way.

And FWIW, if I had dismissed it off hand, I would of simply said he was wrong and offered no explanation of my position.

I can see why you'd confuse the issue. Direct linkage is a different beast.

I'd like to sit down and crunch the numbers in CAD and see just how much adjusting the dogbones changes the dynamics of the rear suspension.
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:15 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni
I can see why you'd confuse the issue. Direct linkage is a different beast.

I'd like to sit down and crunch the numbers in CAD and see just how much adjusting the dogbones changes the dynamics of the rear suspension.
Yeah, I can be simple minded sometimes. Though KTM is coming out with a 2010 350 4 stroke (yep...350!) with linkage. Now that will really confuse me! Huge departure for them on their off road bikes.

It would be interesting to know the actual impact of x change in dog bone length on effective spring rate and travel. I was quite surprised how softly spring the V I test rode felt - I attributed it to the lowering links.
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:48 PM   #58
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Why I put a damper on my Strom

I added the damper to my Strom because when I rode with the factory hard bags, and got on the pipe hard, 80-90mph to make a pass, the tail started to wag. I think it is because of the air that gets between the bike and the hard bags. Once I added the damper, it smoothed right out.

My advice, if you happy with the ride without a damper. Keep it that way. I wouldn't add anything unless I felt there was a problem that needed fixing.

Todd-Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud
Ooooffff,,, terribly pricey stuff there. Does the DL650 or DL1K really need a damper? Steering feels fairly laid back to me during trips up to 100mph or so and I know damn well the DL650 isn't shaking it's head during throttle on situations?

If it does need a damper in some situations,,, is there a damper other than the Scotts? Like I said,,, bit pricey for my taste.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by glitch_oz
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:17 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddlewis
I bought the raising links I have from ebay. seller was "supermoto36" out of Canada. they were black powerdercoated steel. nothing fancy, but the tolerances on the bolt holes were tight and they seemed decently made for about $30 shipped I believe.
I see lowering links from this vendor but not raising links. I've been looking for a vendor of steel raising links for the DL650 for a couple years but haven't found one.

- Mark
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