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Old 06-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #91
Effisland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
There is excessive crankcase pressure from an internal engine or breather problem.
Hmm. I wonder if this leaky gasket is a symptom of the backfire/rumbling I've reported on and seen others report as well. I've been told it's 'normal', ok sure, and I suppose this leaky gasket is normal too. I've seen it before in my other bikes, mind you not on an engine with 4000 kms on it.

If this is indeed a warrantee issue I will gladly bring it in for free. Can this be confirmed, or does it depend on the dealer? I will call mine tomorrow and find out if it is covered, maybe in the 10000 km service.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:10 PM   #92
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The backfiring / burping upon abrupt deceleration is normal.. my oilhead boxers did it too..

Well, mine is leaking again, less than 200 km since the last gasket was changed.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #93
JoelWisman
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EFFISLAND,
A leaking gasket that is leaking more then the tiniest seep is in my opinnion 100% warranty if it occurs inside the warranty mileage and time duration.

If by rumble and backfire you are refering to the crackle and burble that all F800GS's make when decelerating with a closed throttle. That is not harmful or a defect and is considered desirable by many.

In any case, the crackle and burble while decelerating is almost unavoidable when a vehicle has as low of emmisions as BMW has voluntarily designed the F800GS to meet.


The exhaust system and combustion system is not connected to nor does it influence crankcase pressure unless through defective or severly worn compression rings.

There are many good resorces on the web for understanding the basics of reciprocating internal combustion engines. If you are interested in understanding the burble and crackle the F800GS makes and why such has no affect on crankcase pressure, I suggest you google them.

If you are uninterested in technical details, then please take my assurance one is not related to the other :)


Eurastus,
Although coincidenses do occur, I would be very suspecious anytime 2 gaskets start leaking at once. The only common causes I can think of is excessive crankcase pressure, something in the oil the seals don't like, or a good old fluke which does happen from time to time.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:41 PM   #94
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
The backfiring / burping upon abrupt deceleration is normal.. my oilhead boxers did it too..

Well, mine is leaking again, less than 200 km since the last gasket was changed.
Darn, your so far away! This is the sort of thing I am well tooled and schooled to figure out.

Some have repeat leaks and some never leak a drop.

It's like reading a good detective novel only I get to be the detective.

If your gasket ever happens to be leaking as your riding through Missouri, please look me up.

There is one or more root causes on some bikes here and I want to find it
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:37 PM   #95
Effisland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
EFFISLAND,
A leaking gasket that is leaking more then the tiniest seep is in my opinnion 100% warranty if it occurs inside the warranty mileage and time duration.

If by rumble and backfire you are refering to the crackle and burble that all F800GS's make when decelerating with a closed throttle. That is not harmful or a defect and is considered desirable by many.
Thanks Joel, yes its been a few decades since high school shop class! I didn't think it through, and yes I would love to see some diagrams of the internal workings of that engine. Love the sounds it makes even when its not rumbling, must be the double overhead cam or whatever hamsters are in there....

Yep, to the dealer I go. I think they should be ok with it - when I asked about clutchless shifting the service manager said go for it while the engine is still on warrantee! Nice eh.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:50 AM   #96
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Heck Joel, I'll ride down to your dealership just to get this leak fixed properly, but then again, when I hit 12K miles this season, the cover has to come off again for the valve check and we're back to square one.

I've said it many times before: The dealership experience is more important to me than the bike I ride. If I can't get satisfcation from the service side, the bike is history.

Is it really that difficult to install a gasket so it doesn't leak. The initial leak was an oil stain around the top of the engine, the current second leak is worse, it's dripping from the seam of the valve cover and I carry with me a rag to wipe it down.

I hope Yamaha brings that SuperTenere here sooner than later.. it might be nothing more than a 12GS copy, but I bet it will be a lot more reliable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Darn, your so far away! This is the sort of thing I am well tooled and schooled to figure out.

Some have repeat leaks and some never leak a drop.

It's like reading a good detective novel only I get to be the detective.

If your gasket ever happens to be leaking as your riding through Missouri, please look me up.

There is one or more root causes on some bikes here and I want to find it
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:23 AM   #97
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
Heck Joel, I'll ride down to your dealership just to get this leak fixed properly, but then again, when I hit 12K miles this season, the cover has to come off again for the valve check and we're back to square one.

I've said it many times before: The dealership experience is more important to me than the bike I ride. If I can't get satisfcation from the service side, the bike is history.

Is it really that difficult to install a gasket so it doesn't leak. The initial leak was an oil stain around the top of the engine, the current second leak is worse, it's dripping from the seam of the valve cover and I carry with me a rag to wipe it down.

I hope Yamaha brings that SuperTenere here sooner than later.. it might be nothing more than a 12GS copy, but I bet it will be a lot more reliable.
On most F's, it's easy to get right.

1: Clean the gasket and gasket mating area of all traces of oil. This is easy and takes only a minute but you do have to get all traces of oil off or it will leak.

2: apply a small amount of RTV to left side only of top and bottom of gasket.

3: bolt the cover back on, don't snap the bolts off and don't leave them so loose they rattle loose.

That's it, works 99% of the time.

On bikes that leak repeatedly, something else is wrong if the above procedure was followed.

Once we find that something, it won't leak again nor will it be a problem after subsaquent cover removals.

There are a limited number of things that can be wrong and all can be found with a pair of calipers, straight edge, and pressure gauge in short order.

The only thing I have come across so far is a warped cover. Easily detected, easily fixed, no cost to customer. Other things are also possible but they are also easy to detect and all but one are easy and quick to fix.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:44 AM   #98
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So you're just using RTV sealant in conjunction with the stock gasket? You'd think the tech would know how to do this. Maybe I will print this and give it to the dealer.

The bike's under warranty, so I'm going to let them do it, over and over and over again until the warranty runs out.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:27 AM   #99
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A little curious, after reading through this thread - have there been any reports of 2010 models leaking?

I don't think I saw any in here, but maybe I missed one? If the 2010s don't leak, that might help you better understand your root cause, Joel.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:20 PM   #100
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
So you're just using RTV sealant in conjunction with the stock gasket? You'd think the tech would know how to do this. Maybe I will print this and give it to the dealer.

The bike's under warranty, so I'm going to let them do it, over and over and over again and I demand a loaner bike every time.

You can reprint it, but it's the same thing the factory manual says "clean away all traces of oil, apply rtv to top and bottom of gasket on left side only (mainly near cam cut outs) reasssimble"

it could be that the techs doing this a daft, but my bet is something is wrong and they are not catching it.

1: is the cover warped? Use a straight edge to determine. If it's warped, replace under warranty.

2: are the shoulder bolts the correct leingth from bottom to top of bolt? Measure against new bolts or one from a bike that doesent leak. A caliper is required for this. Even a $10 harbour freight caliper is accurate enough for this.

3: are the top hat washers the same as on a non leaking bike? Hold two together to check, same with top hat rubber gromettes, and are the grommets equally squishy? Compare against a non leaker, or new.

4: is the top of the head flat? Use straight edge again.

5: how about the gasket? Normally it gets reused. Check it against a new one carefully, and since yours has leaked multiple times, I doubt BMW would have any issues with replacing the gasket just because.

6: is there excessive crankcase pressure? Buy an extra oil dipstick. Break the stick off, drill a hole in the plug, thread it and screw a nipple in. Use an accurate low pressure gauge with enough hose to tape somewhere you can see while test riding customers bike. No f800 I have ever tested has had greater then 1 psi. If pressure is below that with engine cold, warm, and hot, no load idle and full throttle acceleration, all is good. If pressure is higher, this is likely to be unpleasent and require a lot of emails and phone calls to PUMA to resolve. But at the least ensure the breather path is clear. I have seen plastic molds before where a nipple was not formed cleanly and was obstructed, not on F800's, but if this were the case the excessive pressure would sure cause gaskets to leak.

7: if all else fails, asymble everything as normal but without the gasket. Use a piece of thick plastic to slide around mating area to determine approximate gap, compare to non leaker, perhaps there is an odd casting flaw affecting deminsions?

There Gadget Boy, print that and bring it into your dealer. Tell them some random guy wrote it and posted it on the Internet.

This should be worth some eye rolls but they may listen. If you don't think they are listening, tell them said guy claims to work for Gateway BMW and says if they can't fix it he will.

That will piss them off for sure, I might even get a nasty call lol. I'll bet they will take a closer look though.

The usuall warnings: I haven't laid hands on your specific bike. I'm not qualified to diagnose things over the Internet. It's possible that your leak is caused by neutrenos or antimatter, but I really don't think stopping oil leaks requires rocket science. Not only am I capable of being wrong but it has happened several times this very year :)
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:42 PM   #101
wetdog1965
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Us too

My wife and I have 2010's (f800 and F650). I noticed a slight leak (seep) uper left side of the engine. Not enough oil to be noticiable on the dip stick. Just noticed same problem on mine today. Both bikes under 2000K. I'll have the dealer take care of it. Glad to get the info on the forum. IF anyone has it fixed and it comes back please post how long and how many miles (Km)!
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:05 PM   #102
Effisland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nictrolis
A little curious, after reading through this thread - have there been any reports of 2010 models leaking?

I don't think I saw any in here, but maybe I missed one? If the 2010s don't leak, that might help you better understand your root cause, Joel.

Mine is a 2010 and it is a stinky gooey mess - left hand side only as far as I can tell.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:46 PM   #103
Apostolos
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So far 15 hundred miles on my 2010 and no leak yet. My bike came off the assembly line in March of this year.

When were the other 2010's built?

God Bless,
David
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:57 PM   #104
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This is a known problem and an easy fix, if you know how.
Gasket sealer. Use the type you want. The type the repRom recommends is banned in California.
Long Beach BMW gave me some that they got at the car (BMW) dealer across the street.
It's Wurth DP300. Or use any RTV sealer. Blue will work fine. Just use a full bead.
Again, RepROM says just at strategic spots. No, put the sealer over all the gasket.
Also, it is very difficult to get the valve cover back on. It has to be wiggled back in between the frame to get back on. That will wiggle the gasket loose, and smudge the sealer off.
So it has to be done just right.
I did mine to check my valves. And I always use sealer.
If your shop just replaces the gasket, it will still leak.
Look at the gasket. It's real oddball shaped with two big half moons on it. It's a leak waiting to happen.
dc
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:52 PM   #105
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RTV is to viscous and will allow the rubber gasket to move or distort . A little yamabond 3 or Gasgacinch works perfect.
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