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Old 01-09-2010, 12:23 PM   #16
simmersonwheels
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ummm, yeah... back to the shims

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmersonwheels
If the shim isn't perfectly square, might it damage the valve or cause galling or wear? Also, how critical is the factory surface?
When Suzuki introduced the RMZ250K4 they gave this warning about the shims on that model-
TAPPET SHIM
q
Forged, 7.5 mm OD tappet shims.

q
Selection range: 2.50 - 3.50 mm.

q
To prevent damage to the surface treatment
at the top surface of the valve stem, only
use tappet shims specified for the RM-Z250.
If the surface treatment is damaged, the
valve will fail. Do not use 7.5 mm OD sintered
metal shims that are available from
the aftermarket or specified for some
Kawasaki models. Do not use 7.5 mm OD
forged shims specified for GSX-R models
as the surface finish is slightly different and
the adjustment range is not suitable (1.20 -

2.55 mm).
Now I have never seen a warning for the DL shims, but why risk damaging the top end to save a few bucks? I'm not saying that I know what the valve/shim surface treatment is, I'm saying that because I DON"T KNOW I would rather not take the chance......Once surface hardening is damaged a part fails incredibly quickly.
If it's in the specified range, leave it alone, if you need a shim, just by one. I mean you are only doing it every 20000 kms anyway....
Simon

I've never heard or thought about "compensated wear",(Not saying it is or isn't valid). I think in this case the issue was that the shim hardness and surface finish are being chosen to work properly with the valve stem finish/hardness.
In the 2 examples in the Suzuki tech intro, both have titanium valves, which of course the DL does not.
I'm certainly not saying lapping WILL cause damage, I'm just commenting that for me the perceived benefits of "Perfect incremental" adjustment, and saving money on shims are not remotely worth potential damage of the valve train. If a valve did let go, the motor is likely toast from an economic standpoint.
Over the years I've seen lot's of unusual failures that trace their origins to seemingly inconsequential ideas that "seemed like a good idea at the time"
Simon
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Old 01-09-2010, 06:34 PM   #17
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Oops, thought I had wandered into Jo momma or an oil thread or something.


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Old 01-10-2010, 01:49 AM   #18
duckrider
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Well since I'm on Mr. ultra sensitive's ignore list maybe I can post without a junior high school name calling response or a mini tantrum . A "prefect" valve adjustment (I would call it an "accurate" adjustment) has nothing to do with noise reduction. It's just that in a 4 valve motor they seem to run smoother if both intakes or exhaust valves in a cylinder are adjusted to have exactly the same clearance, thus opening at exactly the same time. I generally set them half way between min and max specs.

I think Joel is misinterpreting what I said about setting the closing clearance on Ducati valves. Ducks have no valve springs. one lobe and rocker opens the valve, one lobe and rocker closes the valve. The engines are happiest with less than .001 clearance on the closer. This almost always requires lapping the shim. If it is set at say, .004, the valve is slammed into the seat by inertia It's better to take the valve all the way to the seat mechanically. Again it has nothing to do with noise. After all, the dry clutch is loud enough to cover any valve noise.
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Old 12-07-2010, 07:52 PM   #19
spibbie
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Some posters question the wisdom of adjusting valve shims with sandpaper, water and flat cast iron. Japanese wet sharpening stones too.

I have to admit I have my doubts. But I tried it.

I used sandpaper, water and flat iron to adjust the valves on my ninja 250. at 8k miles. It has run perfectly since. now at 25k, 2nd check after sanding the shims. clearances are right where I left them, 17k ago.

It worked for me.
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:34 PM   #20
pjensen641
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Only thing I can think of about surface treatment etc is that the shim might be case hardened rather then through hardened. If case hardened, lapping could cause you to get in to the softer base material. Dunno, seems like such a small part that case hardening is unlikely.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:36 AM   #21
cristi-mic
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I did the same operation on my TDM850 engine (installed in the Super Tenere) and I must tell that the steel is not that hard (and surely not surface hardened). A piece of sandpaper and a few minutes of 8-pattern grinding is enough to reduce thickness to the required values.
The only thing is that thickness will not be exactly the same (bigger in the center), but that's where the valve stem contacts the shim, so not a big deal.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:25 AM   #22
spibbie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spibbie View Post
Some posters question the wisdom of adjusting valve shims with sandpaper, water and flat cast iron. Japanese wet sharpening stones too.

I have to admit I have my doubts. But I tried it.

I used sandpaper, water and flat iron to adjust the valves on my ninja 250. at 8k miles. It has run perfectly since. now at 25k, 2nd check after sanding the shims. clearances are right where I left them, 17k ago.

It worked for me.
Still running perfectly at 32k miles when I sold it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:02 PM   #23
Jeff B
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For statistical purposes the last two times I had to make shim under bucket adjustments, both times I was lucky enough to only have switch shims around like Gustavo mentioned.

And if you want a parallel lap, then figure 8 motion is the way to go. I used occasionally lap the seats in diesel fuel injection nozzles and fig 8 motion is how we did it. Your mic will confirm it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:06 PM   #24
codyrides OP
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I know that there was a lot of differing opinion on the subject, so I wanted to give it a year and see what was up.

In my case, I had a 21k mile year with a TAT, Iron Butt, and 2 big mountain touring rides in the mix. While doing the winter maintenance, I took the covers off and found that my clearance had not changed at all.

In the case of the DL650, my experience indicates that hand lapping my own shims was an appropriate alternative. Other's mileage may vary of course, but I am satisfied that this method stood the test of time for me and for my bike.

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Old 04-06-2011, 10:10 PM   #25
Tosh Togo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristi-mic View Post
I did the same operation on my TDM850 engine (installed in the Super Tenere) and I must tell that the steel is not that hard (and surely not surface hardened). A piece of sandpaper and a few minutes of 8-pattern grinding is enough to reduce thickness to the required values.
The only thing is that thickness will not be exactly the same (bigger in the center), but that's where the valve stem contacts the shim, so not a big deal.
Actually...some valve shims are harder on the surface than the parent metal a few thousandths beneath the working surface. I've had to adjust shim thickness that way on three different engines so far, and in two cases the resulting clearance was short lived.

Not all are that way, but some are, and I've no idea how to tell them apart. The factory has no need to make the shims owner-adjustable, so....

It depends on how thick it is, and how much you lap off to get your desired clearance. It'll work, at least for a while, and maybe to the next valve-inspection interval, but if it were my bike I'd re-check the valves that get the massaged shims after a thousand miles or so... it's better to have a small surprise in the shop than a bigger one while you're riding.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:03 AM   #26
duckrider
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At 20k miles I had one valve that was a bit tight. I lapped a few thou to set it midway between the specs. Checked it again at a little over 50k and there was no measurable change.
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:23 PM   #27
tomatocity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckrider View Post
At 20k miles I had one valve that was a bit tight. I lapped a few thou to set it midway between the specs. Checked it again at a little over 50k and there was no measurable change.
The shims used for a KLR650 are sequentially .002" different and I have seen, I believe Ford SHO, shims that are .001" different.
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:53 AM   #28
batmo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckrider View Post
At 20k miles I had one valve that was a bit tight. I lapped a few thou to set it midway between the specs. Checked it again at a little over 50k and there was no measurable change.
That maybe true..but I had you on a toe line for some of those miles.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:56 AM   #29
duckrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batmo View Post
That maybe true..but I had you on a toe line for some of those miles.
Yea, but only the first few miles were in the snow (Bad side stand switch that now lives in the landfill)
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