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Old 04-08-2010, 01:41 PM   #61
Brown Dog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfaoro
+1 I am little confused too...

Is there any reason to choose Delrin over aluminum or vice versa?
I made & installed the Aluminum bushings because i did not want ANY loose movement.
I guess Delrin is for the Faint Hearted that is scared the alum will damage the tank. I dont know, im just thinking out loud.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:36 PM   #62
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Thanks Brown Dog. I am curious if there is any reason to be faint hearted. I am guessing the answer is probably no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Dog
I made & installed the Aluminum bushings because i did not want ANY loose movement.
I guess Delrin is for the Faint Hearted that is scared the alum will damage the tank. I dont know, im just thinking out loud.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:43 PM   #63
Brown Dog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfaoro
Thanks Brown Dog. I am curious if there is any reason to be faint hearted. I am guessing the answer is probably no.
The tank flopping around with loose spongy bushings couldnt be as good as
the solid ones holding it firmly in place. My bushings worn out & my left upper
bolt broke. It was not good . There is alot more stress on those two
lower bushings than people think. Just sayin
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:20 PM   #64
veesquared
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Gas tank bolts . Do you still have some ?

Sent a Pm a few days ago concerning gas tank bolts for the 690 E . I'd like to buy some if you do . Please tell me how as well if you have them TIA
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:21 PM   #65
mfaoro
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One of my upper bolts broke while I was out-and-about. Not a great feeling knowing that one weak bolt was the difference between riding along and -probably- taking a quick (and perhaps firey) trip to the trail/pavement/tree.

I wish we had a KTM engineer on the thread who could tell us what the tank was designed to withstand and whether the dampening effect of the KTM bushings provide any real benefit. I dont want to be out on the trail and the tank decides to crack because it wasnt designed to take a load without any cushion. That would be much harder to do a trail fix for than putting some monster zip ties in to bolster a broken bolt so I can ride out.

Since we dont have said engineer around, I am inclined to follow your lead and acquire some of these trick bolts/bushing for my ride.

Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Dog
The tank flopping around with loose spongy bushings couldnt be as good as
the solid ones holding it firmly in place. My bushings worn out & my left upper
bolt broke. It was not good . There is alot more stress on those two
lower bushings than people think. Just sayin
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Dog
The tank flopping around with loose spongy bushings couldnt be as good as
the solid ones holding it firmly in place. My bushings worn out & my left upper
bolt broke. It was not good . There is alot more stress on those two
lower bushings than people think. Just sayin
Yeah, that's the point I think. I'm sort of sitting on the fence with the delrin bushings ordered. It's quite conceivable that the breakage of the upper bolts is caused/exacerbated by movement in the lower bushes
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Old 04-10-2010, 02:56 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosscoact
Yeah, that's the point I think. I'm sort of sitting on the fence with the delrin bushings ordered. It's quite conceivable that the breakage of the upper bolts is caused/exacerbated by movement in the lower bushes

Im not sittin on the fence. Like Browndog I made some out of aluminum. I also made a set of what I call spacers that go between the polymer and the frame and preload the polymer. Kind of hard to get it in but it sure compresses the poylmer. I think the lower tank mount slop is the main cause of upper failure. Got a set of the upper bolts comming from Trail tricks and will carry a spare just in case. I hope to be done with the tank mount issues.

Now if I could just make my speedo work again.........
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:47 AM   #68
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Bushings

The acetal (Delrin) and aluminum bushings have been shipping out. If you would like a set just let me know.

There will not be a wait list - I'll make sure that they are always in stock!

much thanks,
partmaker
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:03 PM   #69
Vector Leto
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Please post a photo of broken upper tank bolt

If anyone can take and post a photo or two of their broken upper tank bolt, please do so. A good photo of the fracture surface and an overall view would be great. I want to understand more about this failure and some good photos would help. Thanks.
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Vector Leto screwed with this post 04-12-2010 at 06:10 PM
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:06 PM   #70
mfaoro
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Hi Partmaker,

Can you help me make sure I understand what I want to order?

Are these for both the top and bottom mounts. And do both of these use the stock bolts or do the aluminum ones replace both the bushing and the bolt.

Thanks,
Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by partmaker
The acetal (Delrin) and aluminum bushings have been shipping out. If you would like a set just let me know.

There will not be a wait list - I'll make sure that they are always in stock!

much thanks,
partmaker
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:28 PM   #71
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OK got the new batch on the go will have 40 pairs most are spoken for I will contact everyone when there ready to ship.


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Old 04-13-2010, 05:11 PM   #72
bobzilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector Leto
If anyone can take and post a photo or two of their broken upper tank bolt, please do so. A good photo of the fracture surface and an overall view would be great. I want to understand more about this failure and some good photos would help. Thanks.

Here ya go

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Old 04-13-2010, 05:29 PM   #73
Brown Dog
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Fun getting that broken bolt out too wasn't it Bob.
Remember guys, Stay away from those Tapered Ease outs / Bolt Extractors &
use the Strait Flute / Splined ones. They won't Break off in your Broke bolt,
but you have to drill the bolt with the correct size bit.
These bolts usually aren't too tight once the shoulder breaks off &
leaves just the bolt threads in the Frame welded nut.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:25 PM   #74
Vector Leto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobzilla
Here ya go
Thanks Bob. I remember that photo from a long time ago, but I didn't realize what I was looking at. I never took the tank off, so I wasn't sure what eveyone was talking about. Now I have a better understanding.

Judging from your photo, it looks like the bolt failed straight across the diameter, which tells me it was low cycle fatigue failure...in other words it was not an overload. Now I think I understand how this works. You basically have an 8mm bolt that is cantilevered to the frame. That bolt is suposed to share the subframe/rider/jumping weight/force with the lower bushing. The fact that the lower bushing is soft allows the subframe to act as a lever arm on the tiny 8mm bolt. This is an excellent design...if your intent is to demonstrate low cycle fatigue. How does KTM get away with this?

There has to be a two and perhaps three part solution.

1) stiffer lower bushings
2) make the upper bolt out of high tensile strength material that also resists fatigue

Fellow inmates have addressed 1 and 2.

3) perhaps overkill, but I'd consider using a larger diameter bolt. I haven't looked at it, but does this mean you'd have to remove the nut welded on the frame and replace it with a larger size?

I guess KTM thought they'd use those soft lower bushings as a damping mechanism. Following that line of thought, some type of damping should be included too. I think Bob talked about this...did you place damping material on the shouldered section of the upper bolt, or the lower bushings? I think the lower bushings would be the best place for damping...but I'm not sure how I'd do that without repeating KTM's mistake. Any thoughts?

It doesn't seem like you have to worry about the tank. I haven't heard of one breaking yet, the material seems strong, and the sections are large so the stress should be low.

I wonder what it would be like if KTM allowed feedback into their design process...

Oh well. We can fix em. Once the bike is set-up correctly, it's a gem!
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:27 PM   #75
bobzilla
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There is enough material in the nut to drill out to a larger size (10mm) and tap but I have not figured out how to get it flat enough for the side panel to fit right. I think Mudguts will work fine and hope to have a pair of his from TrailTrick soon.
I have made a tapered bushing to pre load the lower Poly bushing hoping that the pre load will take up all the slop. I also have aluminum replacements ready to go if the pre load is not enough.

This seems to be the major weakness that is critical on this bike.
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