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Old 03-05-2010, 07:12 AM   #211
JayBo1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallye
there is huge difference in speed between the front runners of the Dakar (Coma and Despres)and the guys who ride to finnish. Coma and Despres would stress a bike way more than "average joe" so KTM will build something capable of carrying the top guys to the finnish at the front.
And of course an EXC isn't the way to go ,it is an enduro bike .
I agree with your first part of the statement about the top guys stressing their machines more than Joe Average but as to your last sentence, how many of the bikes in the field, other than the 690's, are not enduro bikes? The WR, CRF-X, EXC, 570 'Berg, BMW-X, RX-V even the Husky are all enduro bikes modified for the Dakar.

The EXC might not be "the way to go", but it's a damn good compromise for the Joe Average. Rallye kit it and do the Yilgarn and then straight into the Aus Safari. Strip the Rallye gear off and take it to an enduro and smile all day - both days . A 3 hr Pony Express in ironman? No problems. Bolt everything back on and enter Desert Challenge? No worries. Will it grenade? We'll see ... but 72 hours so far and still sounding sweeeeet . Only oil/filter changes, valve clearance checks (never moved from new), and a DirtTricks cam chain tensioner is the only attention the engine's received.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:54 PM   #212
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To add my 5 cents to the debate... I think Despres is a gar superior rider. I don't ever remember Coma beating him or finishing near him unless Despres had a mechanical problem or other setback (police directing him onto wrong road, etc). Coma tarnished his image somewhat at this year's Dakar with his cheating and he isn't overly well liked by the other riders. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't think Despres is a great guy. I suspect if KTM had to choose between them Despres would have much more value to them. Coma is a gifted rider, I'm not knocking him at all. I just think Despres brings alot more to the table.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:52 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Patrol
To add my 5 cents to the debate... I think Despres is a gar superior rider. I don't ever remember Coma beating him or finishing near him unless Despres had a mechanical problem or other setback (police directing him onto wrong road, etc). Coma tarnished his image somewhat at this year's Dakar with his cheating and he isn't overly well liked by the other riders. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't think Despres is a great guy. I suspect if KTM had to choose between them Despres would have much more value to them. Coma is a gifted rider, I'm not knocking him at all. I just think Despres brings alot more to the table.
Have you got the 2 guys around the wrong way or what ??
from what i saw ,Despres is the guy with no mates in the bivouac!. And Coma is everybit as fast as Despres ,He pulled lots of time on Despres when he was trying to catch up after problems.If you take away Comas penalties he would of come second to Cyril by 10 mins,thats after he stopped on day3 and 4 with problems so i think that shows he is as fast .
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:55 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1
I agree with your first part of the statement about the top guys stressing their machines more than Joe Average but as to your last sentence, how many of the bikes in the field, other than the 690's, are not enduro bikes? The WR, CRF-X, EXC, 570 'Berg, BMW-X, RX-V even the Husky are all enduro bikes modified for the Dakar.

The EXC might not be "the way to go", but it's a damn good compromise for the Joe Average. Rallye kit it and do the Yilgarn and then straight into the Aus Safari. Strip the Rallye gear off and take it to an enduro and smile all day - both days . A 3 hr Pony Express in ironman? No problems. Bolt everything back on and enter Desert Challenge? No worries. Will it grenade? We'll see ... but 72 hours so far and still sounding sweeeeet . Only oil/filter changes, valve clearance checks (never moved from new), and a DirtTricks cam chain tensioner is the only attention the engine's received.
your right Jaybo ,it is a good basis for most people .What i am talking about is KTM turning it into a serious rally bike for top riders.Coma and Despres will need something a lot stronger than a EXC is.
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Old 03-06-2010, 02:23 AM   #215
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Ditto.....they will kill an EXC.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:20 PM   #216
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They would kill any 450 out there, they bash a 690 to the edge of its life. PS although a bit of a Despres fan I think Coma is the faster rally rider, not necessarily the best just the faster. Theoretically if you could build a 450 engine with the same power as a current 450 enduro and make it last much longer and competetive with a 690 then why hasnt it been done yet? It would be an ideal engine for enduro', rally's even motorcross, low service intervals etc. If you beef up a current 450 engine to last 10.000km you will lose power and or speed. If developed, the tuning guru's will get more power out of it and lose reliability, the vicous circle starts again.

Friends in the bivouac? shit they are focussed on racing, personal goals, one secludes himelf to focus the other has other means. Both are on top of thier game, a bit like Rossi and Jorge, and therefore bash eachother at any given moment.
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Old 03-07-2010, 01:56 AM   #217
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VW is increasing the pressure

Hey, if you didn't already get our subliminal message: Go back to Africa and we. are. out. Get it now? Out. Out. Out. Get it? Out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonrally.com

Dakar 2011: Volkswagen "blackmailing" Dakar-Organisation ASO for 2011.


The ASO - organizer of the Dakar rally - has not yet released a decision on where to take place in 2011 edition of the Dakar. This delay is due to be multiple factors, but recently a succession of events will eventually have complicated the life of Etienne Lavigne and his companions.

For some time it was public that there were two hypotheses too strong for the Dakar 2011 - or a return to Africa, through Tunisia, Libya and Egypt, or stay in Argentina and Chile. But as noted above the recent events should be very confused in this equation.
Read the rest of the article at marathonrally.com
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Old 03-07-2010, 02:10 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Flood
Hey, if you didn't already get our subliminal message: Go back to Africa and we. are. out. Get it now? Out. Out. Out. Get it? Out.
Hmmmmm... anyone remember KTM's press release this time last year?

As I understand it, the car VW field is only eligible for Dakar (which is why you don't see it in the FIM world championship)... I'd suggest VW suck it up and build a car (like BMW has) that can compete on a wider stage - and especially if they want to play in ASO's garden?

J xx
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:23 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
Hmmmmm... anyone remember KTM's press release this time last year?

As I understand it, the car VW field is only eligible for Dakar (which is why you don't see it in the FIM world championship)... I'd suggest VW suck it up and build a car (like BMW has) that can compete on a wider stage - and especially if they want to play in ASO's garden?

J xx
Volkswagen "Race Toureg" is eligible under the FIA T1 Super Production rules for the other events in the FIA Cross Country World Championship (as are the X-Raid BMW's and Mitsubishi Lancer/Pajero EVO's). In fact VW has raced the "Race Toureg" at other FIA Cross Country events in previous years 2006-08 (UAE Desert Challenge, Tunisia, Des Sertoes etc.) in order to get test/race miles under the belt for both the car/team and drivers (Carlos came into rally raid from WRC with a great driving portfolio... but not much desert miles to his credit).

Once the VW outfit was up to pace, they curtailed (more recently) their participation in the other FIA and focussed on Dakar (always mooted as their main goal). It's a logical conclusion that this "lower profile" race program, also has a bit to do with the "economic climate" that has hit so many other rally programs (the factory Mitsubishi rally Raid outfit, Nissans T1 Dakar program, Subaru in WRC etc.)

I suspect that VW likes the south america Dakar concept...because, it suits their car, their drivers and (unlike in Africa) they are not giving away ten to fifteen years in experience to their major competition. ie: level playing field.

Then, what their marketing department see's as their primary market place etc. well that's for their bean counters to justify I s'pose.
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:05 AM   #220
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I agree it is primarily due to marketing that VW want the Dakar to stay in South America... but the implication from the MarathonRally story (in the link above) is that the car does not conform to the new FIM rules for next season whereas the others have preempted the rule change (whatever that may be) and accommodated it in their designs?

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Old 03-07-2010, 12:19 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
I agree it is primarily due to marketing that VW want the Dakar to stay in South America... but the implication from the MarathonRally story (in the link above) is that the car does not conform to the new FIM rules for next season whereas the others have preempted the rule change (whatever that may be) and accommodated it in their designs?

J xx
Quite right Jen...

I read that article (had not seen it previously) and as you say... it (vaguely) makes the implication that the current VW spec Toureg (which conforms to all the existing FIA general prescriptions for the 2010 cross country regs) will not however comply for the 2011 season regs (whatever they may be?). It also indicates that the BMW X-raid vehichles and the JMB Stradale Mitsubishi's do though...? (seem's strange).

I will have to find a draft of the proposed 2011 FIA tech reg's to see what the deal is... I guess.

What baffles me is the article reference to "homework" done by the BMW and Mitsubishi teams...? While I'm in no doubt that Mr Quandt has his finger on the pulse of what the FIA may or may not have planned for eventual "tech rule changes" for the 2011 season and on...

the new Mitsubishi Lancer raid project has (was) pretty much developed over the 2008/09 season in preparation for their "ill fated" 2009 Dakar attempt (first time Mitsu had a T1 diesel as an outright contender). Then when the factory pulled out officially of Dakar and cross country racing as part of the economic downscaling of it's motorsport program... The cars and material were then purchased by the JMB Stradale outfit in time to launch a four car effort at Dakar THIS year (2010)... and they did a fine "privateer" job... albeit with the older generation petrol mV6 powerplants... not the GDI diesels originally developed for the Raid Lancer...

Looking into the 2011 FIA season crystal ball; have the new "privateer" JMB Stardale outfit just "magically" come across a formula that fits in to the 2011 FIA rule changes (with no factory pushing and shoving)... and the factory boys at VW been caught napping...? or is the marathon rallye article just a(nother) "beat up"???

See... KTM and the FIM are'nt the only ones who play "politics" with each other...
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:41 PM   #222
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I agree the situation is interesting... I must say, it's a hollow victory for VW if they don't feel able to compete with Mitsubishi in 'African' conditions?

I recall the Robbie Gordon said in a post event interview he'd be back next year "but with a whole new car"... I imagine the hunking Hummer doesn't meet the new regs either (or it's just a bit sh!t...?! x)

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Old 03-07-2010, 02:02 PM   #223
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I think Robby Gordon was referring to having an all wheel drive car next year to help him on the "wrc" type days of the race and not in reference to new regs, or that's the impression I got anyways.
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Old 03-07-2010, 02:22 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99
I think Robby Gordon was referring to having an all wheel drive car next year to help him on the "wrc" type days of the race and not in reference to new regs, or that's the impression I got anyways.
Flippin' eck! I didn't realise that brute was only rear wheel drive - perhaps it's not so sh!t after all then! No wonder he got stuck in the sand (and shouted at a few reporters), but still a mighty impressive result for a 'ute'!

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Old 03-07-2010, 02:24 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99
I think Robby Gordon was referring to having an all wheel drive car next year to help him on the "wrc" type days of the race and not in reference to new regs, or that's the impression I got anyways.
I talked to Kevin Heath at the Central Europe in '08, which was even more WRC-ey than Argentina; he said they had no chance against the VWs and other 4x4s when it came to powering out of tight corners. Gordon was probably hoping for even more open desert stages than they had this year. For a Argentina/Chile Dakar, he needs a 4x4.
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