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Old 10-22-2013, 06:24 AM   #3001
schattat
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AFAIK it will remain being the 2010-13 variant with a 9L front acerbis tank, two sub tanks each 4.5L and the two rears with 5L each. Essentially the frame is not too different on the 14 model, some angles have changed here and there and the plastics (tank), too, but Yamaha has never run a brand new model for Dakar, too risky for them.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #3002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schattat View Post
AFAIK it will remain being the 2010-13 variant with a 9L front acerbis tank, two sub tanks each 4.5L and the two rears with 5L each. Essentially the frame is not too different on the 14 model, some angles have changed here and there and the plastics (tank), too, but Yamaha has never run a brand new model for Dakar, too risky for them.
Proven is good - but 5 separate tanks seems to be recipe for trouble, not to mention come fill-up time?

I admit I had four tanks on my 2011 bike (budget limitations meant I couldn't afford the one-piece JVO rear tank unit!) - but that was a WR - all I needed was a simple vacuum pump to pull the fuel out of the bottom of the main side tanks (10L each) that were below the carb bowl, the other two tanks (centre and rear) were essentially two 5L reserves, and gravity fed into the main tank feed anyway...

However, on an EFi bike (YZF) it would seem to require a lot more [high pressure] hosing to join everything together? I can see the benefit in using a central tank in front of the seat (where the stock EFi fuel pump would be located), but why have two separate rear tanks, and two lower tanks too?

I would have thought the 3-tank system that KTM and JVO use (ie a pair of front side tanks and a single seat/rear tank unit) would make things far more simple and ultimately reliable?

Hey ho.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:47 AM   #3003
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I believe there is a 24 lt rear tank that replaces the subframe totally. I doubt it will appear at this years D
Still with the area avail it would be relatively simple to make a single tank that combines both current and available. 1 fill and your good to go
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:56 AM   #3004
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That's right - the Meca'system kit for the EFi WR was a single rear tank of that size:



I wonder if there will be one for the reverse-cylinder YZF too?

Like you say Pete - it's not beyond the realms of possibility to see a single backbone rear-into-centre tank once the original seat subframe is removed - although routing the airbox/intake might be tricky or at least convoluted...

As I understand it, the Meca'system front tank for the CRF and WR kit has a small header fuel tank of 5L directly below the headstock, while the rear part under the front edge of the seat is the airbox directly above the EFi manifold...

Of course having some of the fuel load forward and low is a good idea for overall balance, but on these high-reving [highly tuned] 450s, cooling seems to be the issue - having as much air-flow around the front of the engine would seem like a good idea to me?

Jx
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:11 AM   #3005
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Just thinking,
If you look at Coma's new KTM the front tanks are bulkier at the bottom and the rear looks smaller.
This would mean they try to get the centre of gravity further to the front and lower.
On a similar note my landlord/KTM Dealer and multiple ISDE participant pointed out in regards to the 690Lc4.
The weight balance is off with all the weight on the back, lower corner speeds as not enough weight on the front.

But as said, just thinking out loud

Stefan
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:04 AM   #3006
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Originally Posted by Happe View Post
Just thinking,
If you look at Coma's new KTM the front tanks are bulkier at the bottom and the rear looks smaller.
This would mean they try to get the centre of gravity further to the front and lower.
On a similar note my landlord/KTM Dealer and multiple ISDE participant pointed out in regards to the 690Lc4.
The weight balance is off with all the weight on the back, lower corner speeds as not enough weight on the front.

But as said, just thinking out loud

Stefan
I agree - and road bike development has been concentrating on 'mass centralisation' for a few years now, with the obvious benefits (apart perhaps from packaging and servicing access of course)...

I recall one of the criticisms of the Honda that Quinn Cody rode (and crashed spactacularly) in Dakar a couple of years ago was the worry that all that [fuel] weight hanging out back creates a pendulum effect if you get a weave/wiggle on... never mind the issue of controlling the suspension/damping set-up at the rear regarding fully-fueled at the start of the stage vs. empty bike at the end...

Keeping the weight centred [and evenly spread] between the wheels whether fully fueled or empty would seem to make the most obvious dynamic sense to me... of course we are only talking around 20Kg of fuel, but still, that is quite a high proportion of overall weight when the 450cc class bikes are getting a lighter and lighter these days?

Jx
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:09 AM   #3007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I agree - and road bike development has been concentrating on 'mass centralisation' for a few years now, with the obvious benefits (apart perhaps from packaging and servicing access of course)...

I recall one of the criticisms of the Honda that Quinn Cody rode (and crashed spactacularly) in Dakar a couple of years ago was the worry that all that [fuel] weight hanging out back creates a pendulum effect if you get a weave/wiggle on... never mind the issue of controlling the suspension/damping set-up at the rear regarding fully-fueled at the start of the stage vs. empty bike at the end...

Keeping the weight centred [and evenly spread] between the wheels whether fully fueled or empty would seem to make the most obvious dynamic sense to me... of course we are only talking around 20Kg of fuel, but still, that is quite a high proportion of overall weight when the 450cc class bikes are getting a lighter and lighter these days?

Jx
by the way - this mecasystem tank ( picture above ) is now used since two years from the speedbrain gang for the old Husky 450 rally bikes. And I heared nobody from the crowed talking about too much weight in the back... ....
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:17 AM   #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete640 View Post
WR piston and gearbox will slide straight into the YZ motor. The 3rd ring makes a big difference to oil usage
With a rallye exh there is a heap of land avail for a 2nd fuel tank if your thinking cog and centralisation.
The YZ based bike is better than the WR hands down and if I were riding D I'd want to shave every last lb/kg from the bike that I could
Quote:
Originally Posted by schattat View Post
They do in fact run the 1st-3rd WR gears and leave 4th and 5th as standard YZ ones (in the past during the WR years, they had a frankenstein mixed gearbox combo with parts from various WRs and YZs) Piston is also standard and is only changed once during rest day in Dakar. The final gearing is 15/47 which allows a max speed of around 170km/h. Apart from that the bike is bulletproof and will run several thousand k's without having even been opened!
Piston and gear swap?

Between this:


and this?




If you were talking about 2009 I'd understand. That's pretty much standard operating procedure. I could even understand if the gears themselves were similar. The current WR uses the recent YZ250F frame with the old WR/YZ450F motor updated with EFI. The 2010+ YZ450F has a completely different frame and rearward cantered head. The design changes for 2014 take it further away from the WR. I've not pulled apart any of the recent bikes, but as far as I knew there was nothing on the top end that is interchangable between the 2010+ WR and YZ... At least not without some serious knowledge of machining.

Do you two know this as a fact about the current models?
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:03 PM   #3009
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Jenny, I too believe it's a bigger effort/hassle having multiple tanks, both connecting them and filling them. Hooking them up is achieved by either the following 2 ways:
a) Have a traditional vacuum pump(s) to suck the fuel from the 4 extra tanks into the main central tank where the stock fuel pressuriser for the EFI sits. Yamaha does this by using banjo bolts that are screwed into the plastic (not the neatest way, IMHO).
b) Remove the fuel pressuriser from the main tank and custom CNC machine a cylindrical container for it (about 20cm in length, and 10cm in diameter) just to house it. Vacuum or gravity feed all the fuel lines from all your tanks into the cylindrical container, pressurise the fuel there and pump that to the throttle body.

Option b is what I'll be doing to get this sucker on my EFI WR:


Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwolf View Post
Do you two know this as a fact about the current models?
Yes, I got the info directly from the team/riders, but I only mentioned some of the gears not piston (replacement piston is still a YZ one).


Another point: some riders prefer having the fuel spread across evenly on the bike, whereas others like it in one tank (ala Speedbrain). Some riders that are pros in dune territory will complain that a 26L subframe fuel tank will have noticeable sloshing effects when reaching the crest of a dune, pushing you unwillingly forwards. Just personal choice and preference, I guess...
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:11 PM   #3010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schattat View Post
Some riders that are pros in dune territory will complain that a 26L subframe fuel tank will have noticeable sloshing effects when reaching the crest of a dune, pushing you unwillingly forwards. Just personal choice and preference, I guess...
There is a remedy for that, the one that they use in the endurance races no? Is there a reason that they do not use this solution?
I think that keeping the rear tanks full would allow more rear biased bike which in the dunes would be beneficial. Closer to the CG would not upset the bike us much of course... I think the new bike work toward that end. They seem to reduce the total capacity as well so I think Dakar will, in the long run, change even more....

Tony. Option b is the best, you can have redundant pumps so that you swap connectors and you are good to go if something happens to the one pump assembly... Inside the tank is way too risky for a bike that goes rallying in such an environment imo...
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:28 PM   #3011
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Check the 450rfr testing pic at morocco, 3-4 post...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...8#post22614448
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:30 PM   #3012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwolf View Post
Piston and gear swap?

Between this:


and this?




If you were talking about 2009 I'd understand. That's pretty much standard operating procedure. I could even understand if the gears themselves were similar. The current WR uses the recent YZ250F frame with the old WR/YZ450F motor updated with EFI. The 2010+ YZ450F has a completely different frame and rearward cantered head. The design changes for 2014 take it further away from the WR. I've not pulled apart any of the recent bikes, but as far as I knew there was nothing on the top end that is interchangable between the 2010+ WR and YZ... At least not without some serious knowledge of machining.

Do you two know this as a fact about the current models?
Yes. Its a fact. I have seen it done recently.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:10 PM   #3013
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Been much speculation, but it seems like the FIM are not too sure about their own regulations either
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:33 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
There is a remedy for that, the one that they use in the endurance races no? Is there a reason that they do not use this solution?
If you're referring to the sponges, well remember what happened to Verhoeven in 2010 on his Beemer? The high ethanol content dissolved the sponge, a big mess to clean out of your tank!



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Old 10-23-2013, 03:49 PM   #3015
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Depending on what the tank is made of use mechanical baffles
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