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Old 12-10-2013, 07:48 PM   #3466
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Ok, so a slow run into the Dakar now, although most of the pre- event news has been


2014 FIM Cross Country-Rally World Championship Schedule

April 4-10: Abu Dhabi Desert Challenge, United Arab Emirates
April 20-25: Sealine Cross Country Rally, Qatar
May 18-25: Pharaons Rally, Egypt
June 7-12: Sardegna Rally Race, Italy
August 21-30: Rally Dos Sertoes, Brazil
October 3-9: Rallye Oilibya du Maroc, Morocco


A long way from Europe (ish) for one rally - but if like last year it's double points then it will be worth the trip - it got Speedy the world title and has given F1 something to think about
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:19 AM   #3467
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Both the new Honda and new KTM clocked over 180km/hr at the rally Marroc in October, right?

The Yamaha: Not so much, with Cyrils bike grenading on day 2 of the Desafio los Incas in Peru. Then again Yamaha has not yet taken up the challenge of building a better rally machine. Perhaps sith Cyril there now in 2014, they will follow Honda's tracks and announce a new factory/development team sometime next year?

What I find interesting is that the ASO phased out the big bore bikes in 2010-2012 Dakars for "safety reasons" they said. I understood between the lines that they were concerned that too many people were getting killed at the high speeds on them. Remember how miffed everyone was at the news and them months of debate as to what would happen? KTM were really upset and threatened to withdraw. We all start weeping, wailing and gnashing our teeth. I guess that decision spelled the demise of the 650 and 690 range, and probably the 950 and 990 range as well.

Now in just 4 years the builders are back with significant advances in technology and tuning have managed to achieve the same with the smaller , lighter bikes. I think that's awesome, and have to wonder how long it will take for this to trickle into the development of perhaps a smaller DS bike that suits the pockets of the retail market. Perhaps another 2 years? Who knows.

Also do you think they will start to force guys to put restrictors in these little bikes as well?

I would be keen to hear your comments and views.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:41 AM   #3468
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Originally Posted by Bluebull2007 View Post
Both the new Honda and new KTM clocked over 180km/hr at the rally Marroc in October, right?

The Yamaha: Not so much, with Cyrils bike grenading on day 2 of the Desafio los Incas in Peru. Then again Yamaha has not yet taken up the challenge of building a better rally machine. Perhaps sith Cyril there now in 2014, they will follow Honda's tracks and announce a new factory/development team sometime next year?

What I find interesting is that the ASO phased out the big bore bikes in 2010-2012 Dakars for "safety reasons" they said. I understood between the lines that they were concerned that too many people were getting killed at the high speeds on them. Remember how miffed everyone was at the news and them months of debate as to what would happen? KTM were really upset and threatened to withdraw. We all start weeping, wailing and gnashing our teeth. I guess that decision spelled the demise of the 650 and 690 range, and probably the 950 and 990 range as well.

Now in just 4 years the builders are back with significant advances in technology and tuning have managed to achieve the same with the smaller , lighter bikes. I think that's awesome, and have to wonder how long it will take for this to trickle into the development of perhaps a smaller DS bike that suits the pockets of the retail market. Perhaps another 2 years? Who knows.

Also do you think they will start to force guys to put restrictors in these little bikes as well?

I would be keen to hear your comments and views.
I think the 'safety' element of reducing the engine capacity was always a red herring - Rallye Raid is never 'safe', and I'd suggest that most of the fatal accidents that have happened have been at far less than maximum speed anyway?

But hey - who is going to argue [successfully] against 'safety' eh?

I believe the main (only?) reason for the 450cc capacity change was, as you've suggested, to encourage more manufacturers into the sport - plain and simple.

All of the manufacturers have a 450cc MX/Enduro engined machine available, and as we've seen in the last three years - pretty much all of them have now produced (either by the factory or utilising independent rally-kit producers) a Dakar ready bike... whether all of them ever finish the event is all part of the 'ongoing development' - insert winking smilie here.

Whether this does have a genuine effect on the development of smaller capacity and fundamentally lighter weight dual/sport adventure bikes, we'll have to see... here's hoping...

Jx
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:22 AM   #3469
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What Jenny said...

With one slight addition...

While the step back from the 700cc capacity limit, to the 450cc class probably knocked a few kilometers off the terminal velocity...

but it has sure made the racing tempo in the middle third of the margins, MUCH more intense. (I still think to the ruben faria onboard footage from Fiabala in 2012).

It was always my contention, that the 450cc rule would make the racing/competition mre frantic... and the lighter faster field of bikes and riders these last couple seasons, seems to be delivering!
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:06 AM   #3470
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Wink 700 vs 450

Speed can be a killer at times and we seem to push for more of it.
I think it was to try and level the playing field so other manufactures could get in the game. This would bring more sponsors and manufactures to the sport. The wrc did the same ting a few years ago so that the top manufactures would not just run away with all the advancements like F1 did. I think that you could get the power out of the 450cc now to match the 700cc then, but at what cost? You want HP vs reilabilty, need to balance them in this kind of sport. Or at least the ASO is making it that way with the penalties for a motor change. As in any motor sport the boys who have the biggest bank account have the best chance IMO, not saying an under dog can't win it but...harder to. I can see in the feature that they will have restrictor plates etc and maybe a min weight limit just to keep it interesting. Level the playing field for the little guys out there who don't have deep pockets. Just look at this year and all the manifactures gunning for the title and I can't wait to see the outcome. The more the merrier, make it more interesting. Still have my favorite (KTM) but will be a bit harder for them this year.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:16 AM   #3471
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There has to be a balance here and I expect that with the subtle differences possible to the factory team engines we won't be seeing Dakar bikes doing 180 from a 450.

For how long could it be done on a Dakar special stage of anything from 350 - 600 km and how much time would it give against the risks of not having a more durable and less stressed engine that doesn't go above 165?

I appreciate that this has been discussed in a slightly different context of late, but I don't believe the "blocks" going out in 3 weeks will be built for top end speed - enough speed, yes - to be the quickest, I don't think so, it's not the optimum solution and that's the solution that wins the Dakar
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:40 AM   #3472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by too old View Post
There has to be a balance here and I expect that with the subtle differences possible to the factory team engines we won't be seeing Dakar bikes doing 180 from a 450.

For how long could it be done on a Dakar special stage of anything from 350 - 600 km and how much time would it give against the risks of not having a more durable and less stressed engine that doesn't go above 165?

I appreciate that this has been discussed in a slightly different context of late, but I don't believe the "blocks" going out in 3 weeks will be built for top end speed - enough speed, yes - to be the quickest, I don't think so, it's not the optimum solution and that's the solution that wins the Dakar
So true! I remember when KTM first came out to the Dakar, I believe that Peterhansel in a an interview said that his goal was pretty much to stick with Kinigadner until it engine self destroyed. Eventually KTM figured it out and dominated the Dakar for many years, but all of that to say that in Dakar there is so much more than top speed.

Kinigadner was always so much fun to watch!

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gagnaou screwed with this post 12-11-2013 at 11:46 AM
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:45 PM   #3473
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... sith Cyril there now in 2014...
Up against Jedi Coma

Was that a freudian typo?

Stefan
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #3474
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... Kinigadner was always so much fun to watch!
the last two words of Carlton Kirby in this snipped were nice
'Peterhansel Disgusted'


I believe he said 'Peterhansel dicussed it ...' but I like better what my brains made of it
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:47 AM   #3475
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"Kini" was one of (if not THE) 90's MOTO legends, that really pioneered the "wide open or bust trying" DAKAR tactic.

A good tactic...?



Not so much...
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:17 AM   #3476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
"Kini" was one of (if not THE) 90's MOTO legends, that really pioneered the "wide open or bust trying" DAKAR tactic.

A good tactic...?




Not so much...

JBB thinks so
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:26 AM   #3477
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Eye think I C what U mean...?

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JBB thinks so
Bam Bam make boo boo or go boom boom...?
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:36 AM   #3478
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Kinigadner was always so much fun to watch!

Shhhh... It has been almost 20 years! I remember seeing that same footage in 95 and being in awe at the motocross style. I still am! Kini was The Man - we always looked at him as an underdog - we knew it would be impossible to keep that pace for a whole "old style" Dakar but we would always hope for a miracle. And so would he, it seems...
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:47 AM   #3479
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Shhhh... It has been almost 20 years! I remember seeing that same footage in 95 and being in awe at the motocross style. I still am! Kini was The Man - we always looked at him as an underdog - we knew it would be impossible to keep that pace for a whole "old style" Dakar but we would always hope for a miracle. And so would he, it seems...

And Carleton Kirby was still at then also!
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:52 AM   #3480
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Originally Posted by Carlos M View Post
Shhhh... It has been almost 20 years! I remember seeing that same footage in 95 and being in awe at the motocross style. I still am! Kini was The Man - we always looked at him as an underdog - we knew it would be impossible to keep that pace for a whole "old style" Dakar but we would always hope for a miracle. And so would he, it seems...
I know since before that Carlos is also a KINI f5ollwer since way back...

If you want to see some classic KINI rallye footage... check out a youtube video called "KINI full gas" (there is a link to it also at the end of the above video that Carlos posted)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUTUF...layer_embedded

If you fast forward to the 10:30 minute mark, where he turns his attention to the Incas, to rallies and ultimately Dakar. (or watch the whole thing to relate to the story of his MX career and 250cc World Titles).

He was a wild unit on a rallye bike... on the featured footage, he nearly "buys the farm" on at least three or four occassions.

Full gas... that was Kinigadner in a nutshell!
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