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Old 03-04-2014, 10:28 AM   #3886
Bluebull2007
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Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
Going to play devils advocate on this beat to death topic

The guys who were behind the pace were behind the pace to complete the stage safely. Org did the right thing by not letting them continue. Had they of been having a quicker pace this wouldn't have happened to them.

I think the Org made the right call, the only call they could have made. They chose safety

I am compassionate to the folks who had their race end, truly. That being said riding at the back of the pack and being told to stop for safety reasons isn't really something to complain about ?

Seems like the org even tried to figure a way to let them continue but logistically it wasn't feasible. No way can you let folks continue after missing a stage...that wouldn't be fair to the folks who rode a faster pace and rode the stage completely and the next days stage.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about (and yes I realize that sounds cold)...
I'm with you on this one.
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:42 AM   #3887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
Going to play devils advocate on this beat to death topic

The guys who were behind the pace were behind the pace to complete the stage safely. Org did the right thing by not letting them continue. Had they of been having a quicker pace this wouldn't have happened to them.

I think the Org made the right call, the only call they could have made. They chose safety

I am compassionate to the folks who had their race end, truly. That being said riding at the back of the pack and being told to stop for safety reasons isn't really something to complain about ?

Seems like the org even tried to figure a way to let them continue but logistically it wasn't feasible. No way can you let folks continue after missing a stage...that wouldn't be fair to the folks who rode a faster pace and rode the stage completely and the next days stage.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about (and yes I realize that sounds cold)...
These are all valid points but we haven't had mention lately of the org pointing them the wrong direction. I think there is more to it than the guys who were just late. Sounds to me that some were made late at the direction of someone from the ASO.

I agree with you completely if the slower riders were merely caught up by the sweeper in a sense. It's happened before and other riders have been told to stop on the grounds of safety, but, at least by some accounts, not every rider was initially running late. At least some of those that were initially promised to be able to continue and then excluded were held up because of the org, prior to any safety considerations.

At least, that's the other side of the stories I have heard.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:27 AM   #3888
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Originally Posted by doyle View Post
These are all valid points but we haven't had mention lately of the org pointing them the wrong direction. I think there is more to it than the guys who were just late. Sounds to me that some were made late at the direction of someone from the ASO.

I agree with you completely if the slower riders were merely caught up by the sweeper in a sense. It's happened before and other riders have been told to stop on the grounds of safety, but, at least by some accounts, not every rider was initially running late. At least some of those that were initially promised to be able to continue and then excluded were held up because of the org, prior to any safety considerations.

At least, that's the other side of the stories I have heard.
If and it certainly seems clear they were, riders were pointed the wrong way but does it really change the situation?

How many riders made it threw before the "cutoff" ? Most
How many were told to stop for safety reasons? Not many

So were those who were cut off behind the pace? I can see how pace is a bad word as they had a slow pace but still one you would expect to finish the stage. None the less they were the back of the pack.

I totally get how it would seem unfair, but in the big picture I think the org did the right thing. Letting them go up and freeze to death would have been very irresponsible (regardless of why there was a delay and also take into affect that the org was busy up to their necks in a cluster muck situation so they wouldnt have staff to help more folks in trouble). Yes Dakar is the worlds most dangerous race but not to the point that knowingly letting the back of the pack riders go up into altitude without a safe chance of getting off the mountain before dark settles in, that would have been negligent.

Not trying to take a side, simply a point of view from someone on a keyboard without al the facts
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:10 PM   #3889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
Going to play devils advocate on this beat to death topic

The guys who were behind the pace were behind the pace to complete the stage safely. Org did the right thing by not letting them continue. Had they of been having a quicker pace this wouldn't have happened to them.

I think the Org made the right call, the only call they could have made. They chose safety

I am compassionate to the folks who had their race end, truly. That being said riding at the back of the pack and being told to stop for safety reasons isn't really something to complain about ?

Seems like the org even tried to figure a way to let them continue but logistically it wasn't feasible. No way can you let folks continue after missing a stage...that wouldn't be fair to the folks who rode a faster pace and rode the stage completely and the next days stage.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about (and yes I realize that sounds cold)...
This being said, should we be look for a similar brutal section in upcoming Dakar rallies that will allow the org to easily drop 7-10 riders somewhere around day 3? I get stopping riders for safety, but there also has to be a balance where riders can be reasonably expected to finish a stage, barring outside problems.
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:33 PM   #3890
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This being said, should we be look for a similar brutal section in upcoming Dakar rallies that will allow the org to easily drop 7-10 riders somewhere around day 3? I get stopping riders for safety, but there also has to be a balance where riders can be reasonably expected to finish a stage, barring outside problems.
I don't pretend to have the answers...heck I can barely get dressed in the mornings

I think at that stage the org wanted to keep people in the race, not the opposite. Attrition rate was going crazy in the first three days, they were faced with a group of top ten guys stuck down in a canyon (one of whom was freaking out), people suffering from lack of O2, etc

I sincerely don't think they did anything malicious to get folks out, I believe a call was made for safety.

As for ASO using tricks to play a game of attrition, etc...its Dakar, its part of the game
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:48 PM   #3891
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Doyle is right - There were in fact three separate incidents that day, four actually. We have discussed the one: Guys being barred from going up that mountain at CP3.

Two was Patronelli rolling his quad down the mountain, it was never confirmed where this actually took place.

Three was 4-5 of the front runners including Sam and Faria, who crashed badly at the time trying to get down and later up the mountain. Barring Faria they all made it home somehow, losing more than 2.5 hours in the process and we know at one point they had to team up and help each other carrying their bikes down a series of vertical steps. Must have been epic.

Then there was the 4th instance where a number of riders (I figured about 7-8) were allegedly directed the wrong way at the top of the mountain.

But going on what a number of people in the middle of the field have said when I asked if they saw an official directing riders on the top, it seems there were no cars up there, except right at the very end where the route when down and back off the mountain. The route took them down a track which serviced an old radio tower (now gone).

I recall Thomas Kocanda talking about one of his friends who was affected, but we never got a full translation of the incident or a post mortem.

I'm beginning to think that maybe they were directed in by the same official who blocked the route up the mountain to go somewhere else. I say this because the front guys who got lost up there ended up crashing or getting down somehow in conditions that were very different to those described by the others who got caught in an impassible canyon.

One lady was rescued out of there by helicopter, (I cant remember if it was Camelia), perhaps someone who knows her could shed some more light on this?
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:16 PM   #3892
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That's kinda what I'm getting at but I'll be clear that never did I think or suggest that the ASO did any of this maliciously. I think a few different incidents panned out on the same day, the org scrambled. In some cases they did the best they could, in others the zigged when they should have zagged.

Whichever way it was, it's done, the stages are over, and those handfuls of riders caught out will have some pains to live with because of it.

I was too early for them to push the attrition button, but once they told those guys to stay the night, it just snowballed from there and someone, (Etienne?) had to make the tough call. I agree it would have been unfair to allow them to skip stage 4 and go right on to the bivouac.
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:25 PM   #3893
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I wonder if Dave C comes out next year with pre-event intel/press release material, that descibes the 2015 course as going to be tough and technical, if folks will laugh it off as "media hype" as some did in the lead up to this year...?
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:36 PM   #3894
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It was a cluster-fuck, but I think that the final decision to disqualify riders of able bodies and machines was wrong.
Gaps from the top to middle to the bottom are measured in tens of hours and even days by the end of this race.
So what if they missed a stage ... They could have ran laps around the bivouac on rest day to make it up.
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:41 PM   #3895
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Another point of view, an excerpt from an interview to Yannick Guyomarc'h, arrived 78th (last) at Valparaiso. From Worldrallyraid.com

Quote:
"...The next day we had the first part of the marathon stage in San Juan and I left already late. I continued to work on the bike even during the special and I arrived at a certain point to the block ... "
Which block?
"At some time in the special stage they stopped the riders that were late because they did not want them to continue with the dark, they thought it was too dangerous, and when I arrived they were just stopping the latest drivers. However they seemed not very clear in their intentions so while they were deciding what to do, I threw myself on the ground and fell asleep instantly. When I woke up, don't know exactly how much time passed, I asked if a decision has been taken from the organization but they said they still didn't know anything. So I left, I relied on the fact that there were two cars of the organization and the crew of one of those said to me, 'if you feel like it, you can go'. And so I did. It was green light for me! Shortly after I found another one that told me to stop but I ignored him and went on. I arrived at to the bivouac and after it turned out I did the right thing because all the other drivers who have been stopped were left out of the race. The moral is that from time to time you should not obey. "
What time did you arrive at the marathon bivouac?
"I arrived at the time limit, at night... "
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:54 PM   #3896
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Auguzt... it seem's that Yannick's boot camp training/watch out for number one and "well... they can't disqualify me more than once" attitude, worked out for him on this particular occassion.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:47 PM   #3897
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Excellent. They stopped him so he had a nap!

Then while the others were still arguing and calling race control, he rides around the truck and off he went!

"hey, stop!"

"Sorry, I can't hear you, this engine is too loud and powerful!"

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Old 03-04-2014, 05:17 PM   #3898
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Could Yannick Guyomarc'h have gotten into trouble for not listening to the ASO officials? What are the rules WRT ignoring/disobeying ASO officials?

He did make it back to the bivouac in time. But what if he didn't make it back after ignoring an order to stop?

2 sets of rules?
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:23 PM   #3899
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He could have been DQ'd but lets just leave it to the fact that "he was acting in the spirit of the Dakar"

I don't think we should take it any further at risk of turning the Dakar into something soft and managed like so many nanny states.

Bah, what am I saying? Its the French! They will do what they like anyway
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:29 AM   #3900
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Could Yannick Guyomarc'h have gotten into trouble for not listening to the ASO officials? What are the rules WRT ignoring/disobeying ASO officials?

He did make it back to the bivouac in time. But what if he didn't make it back after ignoring an order to stop?

2 sets of rules?
Hence my "they can't disqualify you twice" reference.

It was a wierd set of circumstances in more ways than one; conflicting reports, conflicting instructions... all during a scenario that played out over 24 hours or so... all of this - in the meantime - on an event with a dynamic schedule and moving forward each day up to 500 - 800 km's.

When stuff like this happens on a rally, you quickly find the caboose of the train is disappearing over the horizon in a hurry. Something inside told Yannick; "screw the train conductor... I'm not gonna get left at the station this time".

In this instance, his actions seemed to work for him. As evidenced by other testimony, had he stayed at the CP he would have most likely not made the bivouac in time and been excluded, as others were..

Conversely (in another set of circumstances) had he ignored instructions of an official and proceeded regardless, there are penalties up to and including exclusion that a competitor may be penalized with.
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