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Old 12-20-2010, 07:20 PM   #481
ThomasVolomitz
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Originally Posted by wrk2surf View Post
I'll take two please.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:03 PM   #482
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I'm not sure if the bivvy is open while the official dakar thread is stickied. it needs to be revived at some point

2011 finishing bikes by maker

aprilia 6
bmw 5
honda 20
jingaha 2
ktm 35
yamaha 22
rieju 1
sherco 2

Did the 450 rule have a significant effect?
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:55 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dentvet View Post
I'm not sure if the bivvy is open while the official dakar thread is stickied. it needs to be revived at some point

2011 finishing bikes by maker

aprilia 6
bmw 5
honda 20
jingaha 2
ktm 35
yamaha 22
rieju 1
sherco 2

Did the 450 rule have a significant effect?

Aprilia's in Dakar Final Rankings/Finishers = 7

3 - LOPEZ CONTARDO Francisco (CHL)
14 - DUCLOS Alain (FRA)
18 - FARRES GUELL Gerard (ESP)
27 - ZANOTTI Alessandro (MAF)
36 - VERHOESTRAETE Frank (BEL)
129 - KOFMAN Erik (NLD)
146 - GIMENO GARCIA Antonio (ESP)
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:56 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dentvet View Post
I'm not sure if the bivvy is open while the official dakar thread is stickied. it needs to be revived at some point

2011 finishing bikes by maker

aprilia 6
bmw 5
honda 20
jingaha 2
ktm 35
yamaha 22
rieju 1
sherco 2

Did the 450 rule have a significant effect?
On what?
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:25 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dentvet View Post
I'm not sure if the bivvy is open while the official dakar thread is stickied. it needs to be revived at some point

2011 finishing bikes by maker

aprilia 6
bmw 5
honda 20
jingaha 2
ktm 35
yamaha 22
rieju 1
sherco 2

Did the 450 rule have a significant effect?
No competitors died this year. Coincidence? Maybe.
The speeds were generally slower and there was an effort to make more technical route for bikes, both somewhat related to the change to 450 rule.
There was also the route deviations between the cars/trucks and the bikes on several occasions, so several other factors that could have influenced that result.
There's a couple of brands in there that haven't come out to play until the 450 rule came in. Once again ... coincidence? Maybe.
The important thing is that the 450 rule does not seem to be having a detrimental effect on the event. The racing has been close at the pointy end (when was the last time a podium spot changed on the final day?), even if the first two are aliens and battling closely with each only.
I will concede that the attrition rate seems to have been very high this year, but it'll be interesting to see how much of that is due to 450 mechanical failure as opposed to other factors. Also be interesting to see how the "per brand" numbers stack up as percentages of the entries per brand. I'm sure it's a complicated formula!
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:33 PM   #486
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Seems to me that there were more brands challenging for the podium; besides KTM, BMW was right up there with stage wins, Aprilia nearly had a podium finish wrapped up, Sherco was considered a real threat, and Helder put the Yamaha on the podium! If the idea was to mix it up, it worked! KTM still took the top two places (even with the unproven parts-bin special that the naysayers were mocking a few months ago), but I think we're going to continue to see more brands fighting it out, especially after Cody puts a Honda on the podium next year.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:03 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
Seems to me that there were more brands challenging for the podium; besides KTM, BMW was right up there with stage wins, Aprilia nearly had a podium finish wrapped up, Sherco was considered a real threat, and Helder put the Yamaha on the podium! If the idea was to mix it up, it worked! KTM still took the top two places (even with the unproven parts-bin special that the naysayers were mocking a few months ago), but I think we're going to continue to see more brands fighting it out, especially after Cody puts a Honda on the podium next year.
looking forward to building a new Honda once the 525 leaves the stable
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:59 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
The important thing is that the 450 rule does not seem to be having a detrimental effect on the event.
JayBo


Ive been thinking about all this as well and appreciate your discussion.

Allow me to build on your observations, while respectfully disagreeing a bit.

1) I agree riding a 450 is inherently safer. Its a lighter, slower bike. Its (this is probably the most important) inherently less work to ride and so less tiring to ride a 450. Being less tired is safer, and imo that phenomena is overall leading to less death and crashes. Less fatigue. Not necessarily the fact its slower on top speed.

2) More brands is probably a result of the 450 rule. Makes sense, more bikes to choose from.
--

But then i am not so sure.

3) No detrimental outcome from the 450cc rule?

Is the 450 rule, as it now stands, not detrimental? Lets remeber the 450 rule is 450cc AND 3 motors. Its a version of one of many possible 450 rules.
IMO it IS detrimental in at least a few ways:

A) Cost.
Running 3 of the modern 450cc motors is VERY expensive to do. The cost of carrying the motors, hiring the mechanics, etc. is a HUGE cost.
If one is a pro, its no big deal. But for the 90% who are amateurs its just nuts how much this adds to the cost. In years past one could buy a partial support package from Mecca Systems or RRUK or Challenge 75. Now it has to be a full blown support package, and really it needs a dedicated mechanic, where in the past that was shared.
I have to think this is why the Dakar didnt sell out this year, at least for bikes. Yes the global slow down, for sure that was a major factor, but the fact that its now almost universal to have a full blown team support package (because of the 3 motors) has got to be a big factor or bigger factor.
Other major costs are also the fact that motors now must be re-built from OEM. Lower compression, hardened rockers, SS exhaust valves, ceramic/hybrid bearings, DLC/Nikasil coating on parts, etc, etc is now needed from the get go. That wasnt the case with a new XR650, KTM 660/690 or DRz400 for that matter...Berkely Honda can get $20K for a Honda 450 motor in "works" Baja 1000 trim. Not sure what Honda Europe charges for a similar work over, buts its huge, and its times 3.

B) The demise of the Marathon Class and the Malle Moto group, and the death of the 250cc class.
Huge collateral damage here. Not long ago a guy could put together a KTM 640 or a XR650r and ride safe and reach their dream. It was truly the spirit of Dakar. One could go it solo or hire say 1/4 time mechanic duty and have 50kgs of spares in the back of a truck.
The 250cc class, granted never large, is now gone. That limits bike choice, and gets rid of the safest and cheapest option of all.
The Marathon class is at a real cross roads. What will happen next year? Are there any stock modern 450cc motors that can travel so far? Next year its all 450's, and that is really a curious situation. De-tuned 450cc motors might make it. Old long stroke motors like the XR400 suddenly seem like an option. But its really a stretch to re-build a bike that hasnt been built in years. Other options along these lines exist of course. But then the Marathon class devolves into a retro bike class or a nostalgia class or something. Im really not sure what will happen.
Its the same or worse with the Moto Malle guys.

c) Motor swap cheating. It went on in the years rally. Teams used 4 or more motors and didnt report it. Guys used 4 motors, did report it, and didnt get penalized? WTF? This opens things up to all kinds of abuse, and a much more uneven playing field. Whats next, running multiple bikes? In the end it cheapens the victory and the status of the event. Look what happened in Baja with all the course cutting nonsense. Now ya have to be rich AND corrupt...

In conclusion:

As now written the 450cc rules radically change the rally, for good and for bad. It remains to be seen how it will all play out.

I for one wish ASO had a 1 hour penalty for each motor used. Its simple, it allows for different strategies, it lowers the potential cost, opens it up to more bike models, and allows one to reach the finish.

Point being there are many ways to fine tune things. I hope ASO continues to evolve this rally to keep it fair and bring down the costs.

IMO the way to go for 90% of the riders is a DRz400 or XR400e in the Marathon class. Far better chance of finishing. Far far far cheaper. A chance at a nice payback. And really for most riders these bikes will get ya there just as fast.


Anyway nice to read some in depth discussions on this thread.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:29 AM   #489
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another point on the larger 650 bikes, is with the huge liasion distances, would these bigger bikes get you to the dss or bivy in a less fatigued state than buzzing your way there on a 450 that you hoped would last you the whole event?
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:41 AM   #490
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450 rule is a work in progress... or digress...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
) In the end it cheapens the victory and the status of the event.
The 450 change seemed like a plan that was not well thought out, and put a huge burden on most of the bike community involved with the Dakar. What we may be seeing is the effects of a motorcycle race organization that's turning corporate and separating from it's original core. A 450 bike by nature is best suited for short course racing. This information is widely available. The engine penalties were not enforced and therefore validates the haphazard 450 decision. The ASO is now putting the motorcycle community into a very expensive situation just to participate and guarantee the possibility of finishing the race. The Dakar rally is risking loosing the credibility of the motorcycle community overall. They need to consult the motorcycle community to find out how they can better serve them as a whole, to maintain the integrity of the Dakar rally. It will be interesting to see how the community reacts after the dust settles from this years race.
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:22 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by fetid_swamp View Post
another point on the larger 650 bikes, is with the huge liasion distances, would these bigger bikes get you to the dss or bivy in a less fatigued state than buzzing your way there on a 450 that you hoped would last you the whole event?

if it was me trying to do the dakar it would definitely without a doubt be a 660-690 .. the durability easily overcomes the heaviness and wouldnt have to worry about buying 3-4 engines.. the 450 rule sucks period..

Great race this year..

keep the biv alive!
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:51 AM   #492
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Well it did seem like the huge liaison sections weren't the best match with the 450's.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:14 AM   #493
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Well it did seem like the huge liaison sections weren't the best match with the 450's.
That brings up another big issue: The massive liasons. Holy crap, I don't get their thinking on this. They are taking seriously sleep deprived racers, and putting them on public roads for long, long stints. It's a miracle that more civilians weren't hurt. Let alone the racers.

As a soldier we spent a lot of time learning what our limits were (it's amazing what you can do), but that was within a controlled environment. These racers come from wherever, all individuals on their own agenda. Little (if any) experience in the effects of prolonged exertion and sleep deprivation.

The teams have a bye somewhat on this, even on the smaller programs like Jonah's and Quinn's. The mechanic wrenches, the rider sleeps.

But I believe the majority are having to sacrifice sleep to get to the start line everyday. That WILL bite you on the ass eventually, experience has taught us that.


So it's again back to the ASO for responsibility in this issue. They set the route. One problem is that they prove the route, but not as the competitors do. Seen no evidence that they run the whole thing in one shot like in the race, and the route is proven in Toyotas, not on twitchy 450s in 14 days straight. Bigg diff sitting in a comfy car vice up on the pegs, energy expended completely different.


And now they're going to Peru and possibly Bolivia? If they start and end in BA, that's gonna be a problem in 16 days, even longer liasons. Maybe they should look at the older Dakars: 23 days kind of idea. That would obviate a lot of the concerns over safety.



We got all year to debate it.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:22 AM   #494
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Not that I claim to know 4 fifths of fuck all in this arena but I would have to agree with Drif's thoughts on the mad liasons. Sure we all know that the ASO works to whittle down the field by hacking out the weaker entries with sleep deprivation etc, but to do it on public roadways with the gazillion variables that come with this size of event with entrants from all walks of life mixing it u with the people that live there makes me wonder too.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:54 AM   #495
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On what?
yeah i left it kind of wide open there...

Half of the big four still isn't represented. The 450 rule has made the Wr and CRFs more feasible but how much are the actual Yamaha and Honda factories involved? The wr and crf are 6 or seven year old platforms, the rule hasn't really spurred much new development aside form the scrambling that KTM had to do.

Watching the video of Coma being spat off his bike so aggressively made me wonder how much stability you lose going with the smaller bike. ( He probably practices tumbling on a mat but that easily could have been a wrist, collarbone etc.) I can imagine average riders getting very worn down on sensitive bikes as the kms rack up.

interesting trade offs and compromises....
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