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Old 01-17-2011, 02:06 AM   #511
SafariBerg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf View Post
if it was me trying to do the dakar it would definitely without a doubt be a 660-690 .. the durability easily overcomes the heaviness and wouldnt have to worry about buying 3-4 engines.. the 450 rule sucks period..

!
hmmm all due respect but me thinks you need to be stuck in 48-50C in the white dunes or at the bottom of a rio out by Fiambala after 10-12hrs in the saddle (or similar elsewhere) and still see if you feel the same way

Many many amateurs this year chose not to use a 690RR when they could have, especially since 2nd hand ones are not much more than a complete enduro rally build up ~$25-30k and not that hard to come by especially in EU.


Plus ask CVB about reliability of 660's 2 engine swaps before halfway in 2009
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:10 AM   #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafariBerg View Post
Many many amateurs this year chose not to use a 690RR when they could have


IMHO:

Since the modern 450's started to prove reliable enough, a lot of amateurs decided to compete with them (and 525's and alikes) in order to benefit of the reduced weight. Truth is, a lot of amateurs have become less amateur and now buy support packages with mechanical services included. I believe that's why we see a lot less "malles" in the rally today.

I think if you were decided to do it on a shoestring and on a malle, a 690 (which can be found relatively cheap nowadays) would be an advantage. Provided you are strong enough to ride it, or maybe better put, skilful enough to make it work your way.

Simon Pavey this year is a good example: he is a fine professional rider, this was his 7th Dakar, had finished 4 of them before, probably knows everyone in the bivouac and still had to fight like a crazy man to ride and wrench that 450 to the end.

Next year, with everyone on 450's, the malle may become the ultimate challenge for guys like Pavey or Merkitt, but it will definitely be a very hard entry door for a first time Dakarist.

So, most everyone will go the expensive support package way or they will have to find an ultra reliable 450 that doesn't need its valves done for the whole 9000 kms. That's one more expense or difficulty in Dakar. But Dakar has never been easy or cheap
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:25 AM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I'd agree to point - certainly having less than half the power of the 690s is going to make a considerable difference... 50ish hp is ok, but 30 like you say, is going to struggle with the fuel and nav gear on board...

However, it will be interesting to see what the 2012 route includes... I imagine that if it is going to be an end-to-end next time, then there may be less messing around in the sand dunes, and more tight technical navigation in the mountains... if so, the little bikes won't have so much of a deficit, in fact could be a positive boon?

If the 250R has proven not to explode and continuous highway speeds, then it could prove an interesting choice in the uber stripped-down style of machine... tanks are already available, it has EFi (so no problems with altitude and very frugal mpg) - all it needs is a small top fairing for the nav gear and you could have a neat little bike that is strong, reliable and easy to ride...

I'm willing to take one on as a project, although in love my 450 of course!

Jx
Sigh, am I forever destined to be robbed of my unique, odd-ball ideas...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415310

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Old 01-17-2011, 04:50 AM   #514
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Would this work...? 2012 +...

Proposal to ASO: 450cc ELITE / AMATEUR up to 700cc / MARATHON / Malle MOTO and QUAD


Having paid attention to the (ambiguities) in the 2011 technical and standard reg's prior to the rallyAND having watched how things panned out for the new 450 class in the 2011 DAKAR... I spent some time on sunday to go over the ASO book and pen som alterations that (I felt) would make for a more equitable and easily monitored class structure for the MOTO class. (At present the ASO rule book has numerous cross references and contradictory clauses... that I tried to tidy up, simplify and set out here).

*At the bottom (for those that dont like to read) I put a simple summary of the idea behind the proposals, and what they mean in laymans terms to ease/simplify the ground rules for each of the classes.


Suggestion: Proposed amendments to MOTO standard Regulations DAKAR RALLY 2012 +


12P2 NUMBERS & ADVERTISING PLATES’ COLOURS

So as to be able to differentiate more easily between different categories, motorcycle/quad race plates will be of different colors:

Group 1. (Elite): yellow race plate/black numbers,

Group 2.1 (Super Production up to 450 cc): pink race plate/black number + Sp
Group 2.2 (Super Production 450 - 700 cc): red race plate/white number + Sp

Group 3.1 (Marathon up to 450cc): white race plate/black numbers + Mt
Group 3.2 (Marathon 450 – 1000cc): black race plate/white numbers + Mt

Group 4 (Quad): yellow race plate/black numbers + Q

Group 5: “Malle Moto” blue race plate/white numbers + Mm



14P PILOTS’ PRIORITY – ELITE RIDERS

ASO Elite riders are either:

Professional Riders: those paid by a Manufacturer (or other party) to take part in an event.

Amateur Riders: who, thanks to their previous competition results, also appear on the ASO Elite riders list.

All riders that appear on the ASO Elite riders list will be reviewed every year and published at the same time as the regulations. ASO maintain the right to add to this list any motorcycle rider as a function of results obtained during an FIM competition (enduro, moto-x, off-road rally etc.) up until the administrative checks.




ART. 1 GROUP 1 – ELITE

Rider eligibility: ASO Elite riders, featuring on the ASO Elite list, article 14P.

Technical eligibility: This group consists of improved production ‘Enduro/offroad motorcycles, minimum production 100 units certified and homologated by the FIM. A request for provisional certification must be made to the FIM for the Dakar 2011 for motorcycles of which less than 100 examples have been produced and will be subjected to a check by a technical steward agreed by ASO. Manufacturers concerned must contact the Dakar’s sporting service.

Engine:
The standard engine cases will be marked at scrutineering. MAXIMUM 450cc of either single cyl. or two cylinder construction.
The preparation of the engine is free, with the exception of the main engine cases which must bestrictly standard. Repairs to the engine’s ’top-end’ are free during the event. All interventions to the ‘bottom-end’ (inside the main engine cases) will be considered as a change of engine. All loss or absence of markings will result in penalties up to disqualification.

3 ENGINE RULE: Up to 2 spare engine changes will be allowed (without penalty); thus 3 engines in total*.

The engines may be repaired and changed during the event (without penalty) on condition that
i) the engine cases marked at scrutineering are preserved
ii) the exchange is performed in the bivouac.
iii) the seals in place and certified by scrutineer at time of exchange.

*Once removed and replaced by engine B, the refitting of engine A into the machine will be considered a change of engine, in the same way as replacement by engine C.

4th engine change: Penalty 40 min.
5th engine change: Penalty 50 min.
6th engine change: Penalty 60 min.

ASSISTANCE: Riders in the ELITE group are NOT permitted any assistance on liaisons or special stages during a LEG other than by another competitor. THAT IS TO SAY NO SERVICE ASSISTANCE OUTSIDE BIVOUAC* from start to finish of any LEG.

*Penalties for assistance to Elite riders during a leg – other than above – will be penalized as per the standard table of time penalties; up to and including disqualification.

ELITE “re-seeding” Rule: In general, the restart order for each leg is based on the scratch result of the previous leg. A rider in the “Elite” Group may make an application with stewards, to be “re-seeded” into the front group of competitors on a subsequent leg, in the event they experience mechanical or other delays which effect their leg result*. This is done in the interests of safety and integrity of the assistance rules governing the ELITE class. (ie; to observe the Elite group during competition ).

*An elite rider may only use the “re-seeding privilege” a maximum of two occasions, thereafter start order is determined by the previous leg result (incl. penalties).






ART. 2 GROUPS AMATUER

2.1 450cc SUPER PRODUCTION (incl 2 cyl.)
2.2 450cc to 700cc SUPER PRODUCTION (2 cyl prohibited)

Rider Eligibility: riders not on ASO’s Elite list

Technical Eligibility: This group consists of improved production motorcycles derived from Enduro/offroad models to which certain modifications have been made and/or components added that make them ineligible for the Marathon group.

Engine:
Lower engine cases and crankshaft from a production engine, as homologated in the Marathon group are allowed. Preparation is ‘free’. Only 1 spare is authorized ie: a total of 2 engines. Repairs during the race are ‘free’. The engines may be repaired/exchanged any number of occasions during the race, providing that the engine cases marked during scrutineering are retained.

ASSISTANCE: Riders in the AMATUER group ARE permitted assistance on liaison stages - where the ASSISTANCE VEHICLE route is common to the competitor liaison stages AND AS AUTHORISED in the service assistance instructions.

Assistance on SPECIAL STAGES during a leg - other than by another competitor is prohibited.*

*Penalties for assistance to AMATUER riders during special stages of a LEG will be penalized as per the standard table of time penalties; up to and including the maximum time (fixed penalty) for a leg.

RESTART rule: Amateur SUPER PRODUCTION competitors start each leg based on their LEG RESULT for the previous leg (incl. penalties).



ART. 3 GROUP MARATHON

3.1 - MARATHON max 450cc (incl. 2 cyl.)
3.2 - MARATHON 450 to 1000cc (incl. 2 cyl.)

Rider Eligibility: ASO Elite riders, featuring on the ASO Elite list, article 14P2.
or Amateur riders not on ASO’s Elite list

Technical Eligibility:
1) Strictly production based “Enduro/offroad” motorcycless manufactured in at least 100 examples and homologated by the FIM.
2) Motorcycles in the Marathon group must be standard, as delivered by the manufacturer (provided for the exceptions as allowed in the technical regulations; navigation equipment, auxiliary fuel tanks etc.). Marathon entries must conform in all ways to the commercial catalogue issued by the constructor and be freely available for sale. The original repair manual (as used by dealers – no photocopies accepted), as well as all homologation papers, must be presented at the same time as the machine during scrutineering.
3) If the rider is unable to present homologation papers at scrutineering their machine will be re-classified from the Marathon group and entered in the Super Production group.
4) The engine must be standard, of the type homologated, along with carburetor and accessories (alternator, starter, and the complete ignition system). It must remain as originally constructed – only the fitting of an oil cooler is authorized.

GENERAL: The principle of this classification is simple: it is not permissible to change principle parts during the race. The Marathon classification will reward riders who have finished the race without having changed the following components:

Engine,
Frame,
Fork (stanchions, tubes and yokes),
Swinging arm,
Central engine cases, cylinder(s), cylinder head(s).

ASSISTANCE: Riders in the MARATHON group are NOT permitted any assistance on liaisons or special stages during a LEG other than by another competitor. THAT IS TO SAY NO SERVICE ASSISTANCE OUTSIDE BIVOUAC* from start to finish of any LEG.

*Penalties for assistance to MARATHON group riders during a leg – other than above – will be penalized as per the standard table of time penalties; up to and including disqualification.

NOTE: Having made repairs/assistance OTHER than those allowed for under the MARATHON regulations; the rider will be penalized as per the table of time penalties, and the competitor may be re-classified to continue in competition for the general classification.

RESTART rule: MARATHON competitors start each leg based on their SCRATCH RESULT for the previous leg.

ART. 4 GROUP 4 – QUAD
Rider eligibility: Elite riders, featuring on the ASO Elite list, article 14P2.
or Amateur riders not on ASO’s Elite list

Technical Eligibility:
1) Quads must conform in every way to Article 01.83 of the FIM technical regulations for offroad rallies. 4-stroke quads of either 2 or 4 wheel independent drive of up to 1000cc capacity. All technical improvements are authorized.

2) Engine: Preparation ‘free’. Repairs during the race are ‘free’. Only 1 spare engine authorized. ie. A total of maximum 2 engines. The engines may be repaired/exchanged any number of times during the race, providing that the engine cases marked during scrutineering are retained.

ASSISTANCE: Riders in the QUAD group ARE permitted assistance on liaison stages - where the ASSISTANCE VEHICLE route is common to the competitor liaison stages AND AS AUTHORISED in the service assistance instructions.

Assistance on SPECIAL STAGES during a leg - other than by another competitor is prohibited.*

*Penalties for assistance to QUAD riders during special stages of a LEG will be penalized as per the standard table of time penalties; up to and including the maximum time (fixed penalty) for a leg.

RESTART rule: QUAD competitors start each leg based on their LEG RESULT for the previous leg (incl. penalties) as placed amongst the MOTO field..


ART. 5 SUB-GROUP "ELF Malles Motos Challenge"
“Malle Motos” is a sub-group for amateur/privateer competitors entered in either;
Group 2 Super production
Group 3 Marathon
This sub-group is open for privateer competitors, who pay a fee to the organizer for the service of having 2 trunks (as per specification/diagram below), with 2 sets of tires, spare parts, tools, sleeping gear etc. transported from bivouac to bivouac. These trunks 'leapfrog' each other, providing service provision to the Malle Moto competitor on alternate occasions*.

The aim of the “Malle Moto” category is to allow privateer competitors with no service, assistance crew etc. to participate with a simplified logistic; thus reducing the overall participation cost etc.
Malle Moto Challenge participants will be subject to the same ASSISTANCE and RESTART regulations as per the MARATHON group however a special award will be presented for the highest finishing Malle Moto participant in the general classification – know as the ELF “Malle Moto’s” Challenge Trophy.

(*) To participate in the Moto Malle challenge, riders must declare at technical scrutineering, that they have entered without assistance. Verification of this will be made during the rally. The conditions of participation in this challenge will be communicated later on a bulletin.

PLEASE ANY INMATES WHO READ THIS AND LIKE TO COME WITH SUGGESTION VIEWPOINTS, PLEASE REPLY below...
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"What ees all 'zis f5uss about...?"

troy safari carpente screwed with this post 01-17-2011 at 05:17 AM
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:51 AM   #515
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Summary

What's it mean...

ELITE group:

Only pro/elite list riders on max 450cc bike's as approved for the class by ASO.

Three engines allowed, (two motor changes without penalty during the rally)

4th engine (change) 40 min penalty
5th engine 50 minutes
6th engine 60 minutes

No ASSISTANCE outside the bivouac (except for water carrier other competitors entered in race).

"Reseed" starting rule allowed on two occassions max... not so much as for "safety" but also simplify keeping tabs on cheating/motor swap/ tyre switches etc. if they are up the front!


AMATEUR /Super production:

for riders NOT on the ELITE list.

Up to 450cc class (incl. 2 cyl.)
450cc to 700cc class (2 cyl. prohibited)

Only ONE spare engine allowed... change as many times as you like during race.

ASSISTANCE on liasons from service/assistance teams allowed.
Assistance on special stages only from other competitors.

RESTART order as per previous leg result.


MARATHON:

Riders either ELITE or AMATEUR

Homologated standard machine only (with limited navigation/tank provisions)

Up to 450cc
450 to 1000cc

NO service outside the BIVOUAC;
Riders in the MARATHON group are NOT permitted any assistance on liaisons or special stages during a LEG other than by another competitor.
The principle of this classification is simple: it is not permissible to change principle parts during the race. The Marathon classification will reward riders who have finished the race without having changed the following components:

Engine,
Frame,
Fork (stanchions, tubes and yokes),
Swinging arm,
Central engine cases, cylinder(s), cylinder head(s).

NOTE: Having made repairs/assistance OTHER than those allowed for under the MARATHON regulations; the rider will be penalized as per the table of time penalties, and the competitor may be re-classified to continue in competition for the general classification.

QUADS

Elite or Amateur riders

4-stroke quads of either 2 or 4 wheel independent drive of up to 1000cc All technical improvements are authorized. Engine preparation ‘free’. Repairs during the race are ‘free’. Only 1 spare engine authorized. ie. A total of maximum 2 engines.

ASSISTANCE as per the Amateur/Super prod class; in bivouac, on approved liasons but only on specials by other competitors.


“Malle Motos”

is a sub-group for amateur/privateer competitors entered in either;

Group 2 Super production
Group 3 Marathon

This sub-group is open for privateer competitors, who pay a fee to the organizer for the service of having 2 trunks (as per specification/diagram below), with 2 sets of tires, spare parts, tools, sleeping gear etc. transported from bivouac to bivouac. These trunks 'leapfrog' each other, providing service provision to the Malle Moto competitor on alternate occasions*

Motto: "get to the finish by any means possible"




My thinking/ reasoning behind this;

ELITE: Give the factories the chance to "race" at the front, but penalise if need more than three motor changes to do do. Reseeding them at the fron gives ASO stewards better opportunity to monitor transgression of rules etc.

Factory riders (who have mechanics team to service in bivouac) should able to survive during leg without assistance, on own wits. No sevice outside BIVOUAC wil make it more of "Dakar as before" for the pro's.

AMATEUR / Super prod: with both 450 and 700 class, allow amatuers the chance to use up to 700cc singles if they want... more reliable/servicable or cost effective...? let the individual decide that which they think most suitable.

Only ONE spare engine, but change/repair as much as they like... keep cost down but allow to reapair/stay in the event.

Allow ASSISTANCE team access on the liasons (where permitted by ASO)... give privateers chance to stay in the event.

MARATHON:

Elite and Amateur riders on standard machines, no cahnging of integral parts, no assistance outside of bivouac - other than other competitors.

If because of machanical failure, rider must make repair (blown motor etc.) re.classified in general classification so as to "ride to the finish".


Malle Moto:

"Do what you must out of a box for two weeks... pretty much..."


whaddya think F5'er and other astute DAKARista...?
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:14 AM   #516
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LOL!

You should know how many competitors get stranded and have people come out from the Bivouac to help them out. I'd say many times a day
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:38 AM   #517
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When to ASSIST or not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
LOL!

You should know how many competitors get stranded and have people come out from the Bivouac to help them out. I'd say many times a day

With the move to south america, more people, more spectators it is unlikely the event can go back to the "spartan" day time stages of africa where the isolation alone is the determining factor in what "can" and "cannot" be accessed in form of service during the day...

But short of opening the ASSISTANCE rules "carte blanche" open slather (like in BAJA) the only way to (attempt) to keep something like the previous "survival of the fittest" element is to administer rules.

By making ASSISTANCE for elite riders during the LEGs illegal, and keeping them at the front of the field, it make sit easier for the officials to police AND hopefully promote the factories to make better engines.

By ALLOWING assistance on a LEG for amateur riders, we give them opportunity by whatever means to stay in the competition.

By LIMITING the amount of assistance/service allowed in MARATHON and Malle Moto, hopefully we make it more economic for the privateer competitor, allowing them to compete on a level field... BUT provide them with opportunity to make repairs in emergency situation and stay in the event.


having said that... there will alway's be competitors (amateur and factory) who circumvent the rules (either to gain advantage... or to merely stay in the race), which is a key reason why the table of penalties must be able to excercise flexibilty in the administration of penalty.

A rider who cheats to gain advantage is a different situation as to one who is merely attempt to stay in the race, or a simple indiscretion made of misstake.
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:48 AM   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy.B.F. View Post
Sigh, am I forever destined to be robbed of my unique, odd-ball ideas...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415310

Hee hee - great minds Billy x

I hear there is an IMS 19 litre tank coming out - that would be the puppy - just one tank (easily removable), one fuel pump, no spaghetti fuel lines...

Get to work!

Jx
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:59 AM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
With the move to south america, more people, more spectators it is unlikely the event can go back to the "spartan" day time stages of africa where the isolation alone is the determining factor in what "can" and "cannot" be accessed in form of service during the day...

But short of opening the ASSISTANCE rules "carte blanche" open slather (like in BAJA) the only way to (attempt) to keep something like the previous "survival of the fittest" element is to administer rules.

By making ASSISTANCE for elite riders during the LEGs illegal, and keeping them at the front of the field, it make sit easier for the officials to police AND hopefully promote the factories to make better engines.

By ALLOWING assistance on a LEG for amateur riders, we give them opportunity by whatever means to stay in the competition.

By LIMITING the amount of assistance/service allowed in MARATHON and Malle Moto, hopefully we make it more economic for the privateer competitor, allowing them to compete on a level field... BUT provide them with opportunity to make repairs in emergency situation and stay in the event.


having said that... there will alway's be competitors (amateur and factory) who circumvent the rules (either to gain advantage... or to merely stay in the race), which is a key reason why the table of penalties must be able to excercise flexibilty in the administration of penalty.

A rider who cheats to gain advantage is a different situation as to one who is merely attempt to stay in the race, or a simple indiscretion made of misstake.
Dakar is all about survival and making it to the end. In whatever way you can.

Rules (and penalties) are needed, else it would just be a fun run. It is a timed race with a mix of competitors, amateurs and pro's. Different classes, different rules, different challenges.

Ill call in 'BMW Assistance' if that what assures me to reach the end, any day!
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:35 AM   #520
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RE: 450 elite engine changes - 4t, 5th and 6th

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonHomme
I agree with all the rest.
What I would like to see, but I understand it might not happen because of big money teams would bitch like there's no tomorrow, is a maximum of 3 engine changes as stated above and THAT'S IT.
After 3 changes, if it fails, rider is out, period, end of story.
My motivation for this would be the engineering of tougher, more reliable engines.


While I agree (in principle) with you... but realistically... it's going to take manufacturers more that 12 months to design and engineer these kind of new tougher reliable motors and put them into production. I'd see the 3 engine (+ three swaps) rule as an interim measure, while the development progress over the next years? Then maybe graft it back to two engines?

But then again... maybe as you say; the pressure of 3 engines/swaps MAX that's it, will force the factories to a) back off the pace (unlikely?) or improve serviceability.

One thing I can think is an unwarranted expense (in the factories eyes), is allowing THREE engines but only being allowed to use them ONCE... it's afair bit of gear to freight from A to Z over 14 days.

That was also the thought behind reducing the Amatuer class to ONE spare engine... but allow to service/rebuils as much as they need to. Keep cost down, but maintenence/servicability up.

Downside of course (there is always one) be competitive in the amateurr/SP class is that it almost dictates you have a assistance/mechanic on the rally*.

*Another reason to open up and profile the MARATHON and Malle MOTO categories for amateur riders.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:45 AM   #521
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Troy and myself had a little PM conversation on the above which boiled down to;


Quote:
Now these riders dont compete for any of the top results in any of the classes and dont mind if they drop down a class or in the results.

I think your observations are right and fair and guess you would have driven out into the desert at night to some gps coordinates to deliver needed spares, no?


EXACTLY! And that's what I mean (maybe I did a piss poor job explaining it?) the rules need to be flexible for the amatuers/malle moto and allow them to continue... but stringent for the factory teams. Therefore the fixed penalty table (which often has a hard fast rule ie; don't do it... or you are disqualified) needs to take these difference into account.

Can you do a better job of explaining this for me on the thread, it would be appreciated as it is definately a key issue regards the bulk of the amateur field.
Voila, a good recap, no?
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:50 PM   #522
Lobby
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One of the things you all may be forgetting is that, like most race organizations, ASO has become a big business.

Once organizations get that large and see that much money coming in, their focus changes. They start making growth goals. Chasing TV and business sponsorships.

And pretty soon, the amateur classes in their events go away.

It's only a matter of time...
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:33 PM   #523
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-KTM450RR bikes can be bought from KTM Austria. Contact them directly.
-I dont have stats on exactly how many of any brand have finished on how many engines over the last 6 years. Nobody does. I only have personal conversations with various participants, including numerous guys on Yamahas. Hey ive even helped change out 450 Yamaha motors in Dakar bivouacs!




TROY,

Nice work. Obviously you spent some serious time working on your revisions.
For the most part i agree with your ideas.

There are however many areas i am not sure about, and a few i dont agree with.

As a past and future ASO competitor i am not comfortable 'taking it to the streets' on the internet with their rules, etc. ASO is an INCREDIBLY well run organization. They work very hard under insane conditions! So i wont make further comments other than to commend you on your passion and concerns. I only wish more (any?) US organizations/businesses where are well run as ASO.

I will say this:
ASO essentially divides the Dakar into 2 races. 2 wheel and 4 wheel. There are different race directors, officials, etc. for each race. Perhaps if you want to keep going you contact the motorcycle race director and share your thoughts/ideas with him. Just a thought.
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:32 PM   #524
Lobby
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:05 PM   #525
JMo (& piglet)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobby View Post
One of the things you all may be forgetting is that, like most race organizations, ASO has become a big business.

Once organizations get that large and see that much money coming in, their focus changes. They start making growth goals. Chasing TV and business sponsorships.

And pretty soon, the amateur classes in their events go away.

It's only a matter of time...
I think what some people are forgetting is this is THE PREMIER OFF ROAD RACE IN THE WORLD!!!

There is no point in making it easier for amateurs - this is the ONLY event where (if you can afford the entry fee and the organization deem you competent enough) you can line up on the start with the world's top riders/drivers and works teams...

It's the equivalent of buying an R1 and then lining up on the grid with Rossi...

No 'genuine' amateur (ie. inexperienced) is ever going to worry the top riders - those that do manage to fight their way into the top 10 are dedicated sportsmen who just happen not to be paid as much (or at all) for when they're racing... they are far more talented than everyman, believe me!

There is no point in trying to create a two-tier Dakar, that would just dilute the whole kudos of actually finishing... yes you might be battling the 'Dakar' itself for most of the race, but the whole point is to finish the same race as the top riders and works teams...

It's what drives us to go back each year x

Jx

ps. regarding having open classes and or large twin cylinder bikes for 'amateurs' in the Dakar again - seriously, if those are the bikes you want to ride, enter Heroes-Legend (or the Tuareg in Morocco) for example - believe me, just because they are not FIM sanctioned or on the telly, they are a real test of an amateur rider and machine... and then tell me you'd want to ride such a bike in the 'big' Dakar!
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