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Old 01-17-2011, 06:32 PM   #526
Lobby
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I wasn't talking about creating a two tier system. I just had my crystal ball on and was "seeing" the Dakar in 10 or 15 years without significant amateur participation because the world had finally caught on to how important this race is. Money would then flow into the race, and amateurs would be pushed out.

But what do I know?

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Old 01-17-2011, 06:44 PM   #527
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Hi Lobby - sorry, my reply was as an extension to what you'd already said, not as a reply...

I agree with your suggestion... ASO will do all they can to ensure the Dakar is only ever going to get bigger, and they are not going to incorporate concessions for the amateur competitors, you sink or swim with the big fish...

Jx
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:55 PM   #528
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:25 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
No 'genuine' amateur (ie. inexperienced) is ever going to worry the top riders - those that do manage to fight their way into the top 10 are dedicated sportsmen who just happen not to be paid as much (or at all) for when they're racing... they are far more talented than everyman, believe me!
Spot on. Those in the top 10 are mostly professional athletes on good contracts and parts of handpicked teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
ps. regarding having open classes and or large twin cylinder bikes for 'amateurs' in the Dakar again - seriously, if those are the bikes you want to ride, enter Heroes-Legend (or the Tuareg in Morocco) for example - believe me, just because they are not FIM sanctioned or on the telly, they are a real test of an amateur rider and machine... and then tell me you'd want to ride such a bike in the 'big' Dakar!
Agreed.
If I ever should fancy doing the Dakar I'd rather test these events first before even thinking of doing the big D. I'll stick with my 690RR and only do events approving that bike, though. After this years mechanical melees I wouldn't even think otherwise - but that's me.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:42 PM   #530
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from the main thead.
even better for discusssion would be a list of models started and finished
and then the unobtainium a list of motors used.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertboner View Post
Looking at the 2011 Dakar withdrawals/finishes I thought the following stats may be of some interest.

170 bikes started stage 1 of which 94 finished (55%) resulting in 76 withdrawals for whatever reason (45%). By make it looks like;

RIEJU - 100% finished 1 from 1
HONDA - 69% finished 20 from 29
JINCHENG - 67% finished 2 from 3
KTM - 63% finished 35 from 56
APRILIA - 54% finished 6 from 13
YAMAHA - 54% finished 22 from 41
BMW - 50% finished 5 from 10
SHERCO - 50% finished 2 from 4
BETA - 0% finished nil from 6
BULTACO - 0% finished nil from 1
HUSABERG - 0% finished nil from 2
HUSQUARNA- 0% finished nil from 1
JVO - 0% finished nil from 1
KAWASAKI - 0% finished nil from 2
TOTAL - 55% finished 94 from 170
ktms finished?
Quote:
Originally Posted by garfey View Post
690s - 26
660s - 1
530s - 8
525s - 4
UNK - 1 (displ not listed for Svitko)
(and, of course, Belaustegui's 150)

{Hope I counted correctly}
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:43 AM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobby View Post
I just had my crystal ball on and was "seeing" the Dakar in 10 or 15 years without significant amateur participation because the world had finally caught on to how important this race is. Money would then flow into the race, and amateurs would be pushed out.
I think the world has already caught on the notoriety of Dakar and a lot of money already flown into the race.

The amateurs keep being pushed out by how complex, how hard, how expensive it is and they keep submitting their inscriptions

On my cristal ball: in 10 or 15 years the Dakar will be at least as hard, prolly more complex and for sure even more expensive. And amateurs will still be trying to make it. And most of us we'll still be here F5'ing instead of racing it because of how expensive it is
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:15 AM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fetid_swamp View Post
from the main thead.
even better for discusssion would be a list of models started and finished
and then the unobtainium a list of motors used.....



ktms finished?
Nah, that was a list of KTM starters w/>450cc displacement that PackMule asked for.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:41 AM   #533
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from jesmunk.com ... the aftermath...

Quote:
For Jes Munk, the Dakar finished at Km 29 of the stage Calama – Iquique.
“It was a stony and dusty area – tells the rider who arrived to the bivouac at 1.30 a.m. in a cab from the “Hospital del Cobre” of Calama -. I wasn´t going fast, I was almost still and I felt I was losing control on the front part of the Aprilia. I threw myself away from the bike, but at the same time I saw another motorcycle coming very fast. So, I rolled over on the ground to get out of the track but my left arm didn´t go at the same speed and the rider touched me… I heard a big “crack” sound … I had a luxation of the elbow and I couldn´t put it back in place, so I called the rescue and the helicopter arrived quickly. Then, I was transported from the start of the special to the Hospital Salvador Allende Gossens (del Cobre) in a Tango, a medical car, and there, they reduced the luxation.
Then, I was taken in charge by the doctors of the organization, who repatriated me in a taxi from Calama to the bivouac.
Today I´m in Arica and my return to Denmark is being organized. I feel sorry for not staying here for the second week to test my physical condition and discover the big dunes of Copiapó… I adored this extraordinary human and sporting experience. I will come back with a better psychological preparation because here, being physically in shape is important, but your mind must be very strong to bear the pressure.”
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:20 AM   #534
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Quote:
ps. regarding having open classes and or large twin cylinder bikes for 'amateurs' in the Dakar again - seriously, if those are the bikes you want to ride, enter Heroes-Legend (or the Tuareg in Morocco) for example - believe me, just because they are not FIM sanctioned or on the telly, they are a real test of an amateur rider and machine... and then tell me you'd want to ride such a bike in the 'big' Dakar!
I rode a technically easy rally for 8 days in Mongolia in August on a 640E, I was in good physical condition and I now for a fact I wouldn't have wanted anything bigger for a lot of most days. although it was a comfortable seat to hang out on 600+ Km stages
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:39 AM   #535
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As Skibum suggests, I think the key to comfort on long liaisons is a good seat, and the right gearing, rather than overall capacity of the engine, and the weight of the bike itself.

And once you get off the liaison, having a lighter more nimble bike is only ever going to be easier during the special stages? Particularly in the sand!

Of course a lot of enduro bikes have close(er) ratio gearboxes, and many only 5-speed, which can make things difficult - but on the whole, in desert rallies you don't need ultra low gearing, and most riders seemed to be running a 47 or even 45T rear sprocket to make things easier on the liaisons.

Fancy valve-trains and ultra light pistons are the things that are going to wear/fail prematurely on long runs, so as long as manufacturers aren't chasing every last available hp, I reckon we could see some very interesting engine developments over the next few years...

For example, look at what Yamaha have done with their WR250R trail-bike - that offers essentially the same engine performance as a WR250F, yet with vastly longer service intervals... and the only reason the 250R weighs more than the 250F is all the road (and emmissions) kit fitted to that bike - that engine in a 250F chassis would be awesome!

And a 450cc version - well, that would be the ultimate?!

It may be that the 650cc class dual-sport is ultimately replaced by a new breed of sub 500cc engines that offer the same sort of power and reliability, but in a smaller and lighter package?

Jx
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:59 AM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
And a 450cc version - well, that would be the ultimate?!

Jx
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:46 AM   #537
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Thumbs up for more bike development...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I reckon we could see some very interesting engine developments over the next few years... look at what Yamaha have done with their WR250R trail-bike -And a 450cc version - well, that would be the ultimate?!Jx
Well put, but also let's not forget how Honda faired this year. Honda has only showed limited involvement over recent years, but JCR proved their 450 is at par with the lead bikes. If Honda corporate got involved again it could be scary good for everyone. It would light a match under everyone else and competition is a good thing, especially when if involves reliability.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:16 AM   #538
JMo (& piglet)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSurfer View Post
Well put, but also let's not forget how Honda faired this year. Honda has only showed limited involvement over recent years, but JCR proved their 450 is at par with the lead bikes. If Honda corporate got involved again it could be scary good for everyone. It would light a match under everyone else and competition is a good thing, especially when if involves reliability.
I agree - Honda are one of the few manufacturers who have the resources to really develop a new breed of small and hyper-efficient / hyper-reliable motorcycle engines...

There seems to have been a resurgence in the 250cc market recently, but I'm not sure if Honda are still hampered by the sub 400cc rule they have/had in their home market? If so, the incentive to develop a 400+cc engine is not going to be so great?

I'm sure any development from Honda regarding a 'street legal' 450 will be market led - it would have to be a commercially viable project... and I'm not sure if they are willing to take that gamble when they already sell shed loads of competition 450s already?

Jx

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Old 01-19-2011, 10:18 AM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos M View Post
I think the world has already caught on the notoriety of Dakar and a lot of money already flown into the race.

The amateurs keep being pushed out by how complex, how hard, how expensive it is and they keep submitting their inscriptions

On my cristal ball: in 10 or 15 years the Dakar will be at least as hard, prolly more complex and for sure even more expensive. And amateurs will still be trying to make it. And most of us we'll still be here F5'ing instead of racing it because of how expensive it is

You're right and I agree.
But amateurs could come back to Africa to race AFRICA RACE to Dakar, regular FIM rally as the Dakar, 12 / 13 days, historic country crossed, and historic director of the race (do you know a man called Metge?)

It lack only that amateurs start race this rally and start know truly it and I am sure the number of racers will be more than one hundred.
If you think Pharaons has 80 bike near, this year..., just 6 stages.

Dakar is still a great big though adventure, but it's so different from the African Dakar. No better, no worst than African Dakar, but different.
If you will take part in , do not be afraid if they (ASO) throw you away during the race...

Remember, if you're not able to drive on sand and dunes, or if the bike doesn't work, or if you are not able to find the right CAP... you could not reach Dakar and the Pink Lake also with Africa Race.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:13 PM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
Fancy valve-trains and ultra light pistons are the things that are going to wear/fail prematurely on long runs, so as long as manufacturers aren't chasing every last available hp, I reckon we could see some very interesting engine developments over the next few years...

For example, look at what Yamaha have done with their WR250R trail-bike - that offers essentially the same engine performance as a WR250F, yet with vastly longer service intervals... and the only reason the 250R weighs more than the 250F is all the road (and emmissions) kit fitted to that bike - that engine in a 250F chassis would be awesome!

And a 450cc version - well, that would be the ultimate?!
Jx

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