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Old 01-04-2012, 03:17 PM   #1171
F650Dakar_Norway
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Here's an interesting dilemma - how reliable is the Iritrack/ERTF GPS Unik system in tracking WP proximity?

OK to get that time penalty if you miss that WP by more than 90 metres before activating next waypoint leg. If I do bad navigation and miss that waypoint - time to pay the penalty. The GPS-data-recorder is a reliable "flight-recorder" and should do the job. Fair one - and mostly beyond debate.

But what if the Iritrack/ERTF GPS Unik setup has intermittent technical flaws, caused by vibrations & other rally stress factors, like for instance failure to update the uplinked WP site data because of WP-data uplink updates not working properly?

What if the GPS uplink was flawed at that point when certain participants where trying to confirm they were passing within the required 90 metre WP-criterium?

ASO will no doubt insist - based on the GPS/Iritrack-log - that Participants A to Z have missed the regulatory WP confirmations.

Who quality-assures these data and verifies their validity - ASO and ERTF or some third-party quality assurance authority from FIM?

Just curious to what GPS data-verification authority is at work here. I'm sure also some riders will ask similar questions after yesterday's nav miseres.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:27 PM   #1172
JMo (& piglet)
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Originally Posted by garfey View Post
... but I'm already missing

Aw... you guys...

Yes, for what it's worth, I'm missing it too - although if the first three days are anything to go by, it's been pretty brutal already this year!

All being well, once the dust has settled on 2012, I'll be getting my sh!t together for 2013 - oh yes!

Watch this space... well, after you've finished watching the Dakar this year of course!

Jenny xx
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:35 PM   #1173
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Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
Aw... you guys...

Yes, for what it's worth, I'm missing it too - although if the first three days are anything to go by, it's been pretty brutal already this year!

All being well, once the dust has settled on 2012, I'll be getting my sh!t together for 2013 - oh yes!

Watch this space... well, after you've finished watching the Dakar this year of course!

Jenny xx

I see the 2013 'Countdown to Dakar' clock is already running on your website Jenny
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:39 PM   #1174
JMo (& piglet)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F650Dakar_Norway View Post
Here's an interesting dilemma - how reliable is the Iritrack/ERTF GPS Unik system in tracking WP proximity?

OK to get that time penalty if you miss that WP by more than 90 metres before activating next waypoint leg. If I do bad navigation and miss that waypoint - time to pay the penalty. The GPS-data-recorder is a reliable "flight-recorder" and should do the job. Fair one - and mostly beyond debate.

But what if the Iritrack/ERTF GPS Unik setup has intermittent technical flaws, caused by vibrations & other rally stress factors, like for instance failure to update the uplinked WP site data because of WP-data uplink updates not working properly?

What if the GPS uplink was flawed at that point when certain participants where trying to confirm they were passing within the required 90 metre WP-criterium?

ASO will no doubt insist - based on the GPS/Iritrack-log - that Participants A to Z have missed the regulatory WP confirmations.

Who quality-assures these data and verifies their validity - ASO and ERTF or some third-party quality assurance authority from FIM?

Just curious to what GPS data-verification authority is at work here. I'm sure also some riders will ask similar questions after yesterday's nav miseres.
As I understand it, the Unik GPS records the tracklog into it's own memory, as well as sending a signal out to organization at various intervals via the Iritrack system - and as you sermise, this would require a stable GPS reception to record the [accurate] data to it's own memory... however, if there is an intermittent [technical] fault, that should be clear once the track log is downloaded at the end of the stage by the organisation - which it would be if there is any dispute regarding which waypoints were missed/reached...

From the data recorded (and any corresponding holes in the track log), it should be clear if the gaps coincided with the waypoint position, and I trust the Orga would give you the benefit of the doubt should a particular gap correspond with an actual waypoint position?

Jx
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #1175
F650Dakar_Norway
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If I understand correctly from my spectator viewpoint - the Iritrack and ERTF GPS Unik are rentable-only items from two different companies.

IRC ( International Racing Consultants )
http://www.racetheworld.net/ircstore...oduct=IriTrack

ERTF ( ERTF Holding )
http://www.ertf.com/uk/ertf.asp
http://www.ertf.com/uk/tracking.asp

I also assume that these items are way too expensive to buy and use for me as a private 690RR owner. This combined communication system intrigues me and my technofile genes wants to own a complete rally system like this - just for the heck of it - and technical curiosity.

OK, so you apply and register with a rally event, rent this Iritrack/Sentinel/ERTF GPS Unik Colour package - show up at appropriate tech inspections etc., get these items delivered and mounted. Then race etc.

Who's responsible for mounting Iritrack/Sentinel/GPS Unik on the bike, cabling, contacs etc.? I expect them (ASO or ditto rally orga. ) to expect from participants that they got the mounting frames, antennaes etc. pre-bought and pre-installed.

Given the equipment complexity, equipment rally-duress etc. to contain certain possibilites for tecnical reliability issues ( as also sweaty, dehydrated and fatigued rider navigational errors .... ).

Is this equipment Totally Robust & Flawless (TM), or can there be technical issues causing yesterday's massed nav calamity? Who adresses such technical question-marks, is the main issue from my amateur spectator viewpoint.

P.S. ERTF -people; if you read this I'm very interested in buying a non-commissioned older bike ERTF Unik with the possibility to program it for private gravel-touring, waypoint NAV purposes - if possible. I already got the previously used big ERTF mounting frame from Pal Anders Ullevalseter. Would be cool to have that GPS-unit as a fully functional enthusiast, collectors item on my 690RR.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:08 AM   #1176
mtrehy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F650Dakar_Norway View Post
If I understand correctly from my spectator viewpoint - the Iritrack and ERTF GPS Unik are rentable-only items from two different companies.

IRC ( International Racing Consultants )
http://www.racetheworld.net/ircstore...oduct=IriTrack

ERTF ( ERTF Holding )
http://www.ertf.com/uk/ertf.asp
http://www.ertf.com/uk/tracking.asp

I also assume that these items are way too expensive to buy and use for me as a private 690RR owner. This combined communication system intrigues me and my technofile genes wants to own a complete rally system like this - just for the heck of it - and technical curiosity.

OK, so you apply and register with a rally event, rent this Iritrack/Sentinel/ERTF GPS Unik Colour package - show up at appropriate tech inspections etc., get these items delivered and mounted. Then race etc.

Who's responsible for mounting Iritrack/Sentinel/GPS Unik on the bike, cabling, contacs etc.? I expect them (ASO or ditto rally orga. ) to expect from participants that they got the mounting frames, antennaes etc. pre-bought and pre-installed.

Given the equipment complexity, equipment rally-duress etc. to contain certain possibilites for tecnical reliability issues ( as also sweaty, dehydrated and fatigued rider navigational errors .... ).

Is this equipment Totally Robust & Flawless (TM), or can there be technical issues causing yesterday's massed nav calamity? Who adresses such technical question-marks, is the main issue from my amateur spectator viewpoint.

P.S. ERTF -people; if you read this I'm very interested in buying a non-commissioned older bike ERTF Unik with the possibility to program it for private gravel-touring, waypoint NAV purposes - if possible. I already got the previously used big ERTF mounting frame from Pal Anders Ullevalseter. Would be cool to have that GPS-unit as a fully functional enthusiast, collectors item on my 690RR.

They send you the cables before the event with instructions that will tell you the length they need to be in order to be able to connect them up. You purchase and install the brackets.

At documentation you will be given the units which you will be responsible for installing. It's your rally bike and ultimately everything is your responsibility and you should not rely on anyone else.

There's usually a few TDCOM and ERTF guys (and other racers) around who will help you out if you are not sure about anything and they will come around and check everything is working and sign you off as part of scrutineering. They are very helpful and will change any suspect cables or antennas etc (often without you even asking).

Iritrack is from TDCOM www.tdcom.com

I reckon I spent more time on the electrics on my bike than all the rest of the preparation combined.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:56 AM   #1177
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I may have written this before, but I have considered designing and building such a GPS unit, dedicated for rallye training purposes, with a PC interface for setting (hidden) waypoints, etc. That is only if there is enough demand for such a unit ...
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #1178
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Originally Posted by schattat View Post
I may have written this before, but I have considered designing and building such a GPS unit, dedicated for rallye training purposes, with a PC interface for setting (hidden) waypoints, etc. That is only if there is enough demand for such a unit ...
I'm working on a device that would replace the iritrack, sentinel function, many of the GPS functions, some roadbook functions, and add a bunch of functions that don't yet exist in any current device. It's a very slow development process, partly because the demand is so small I struggle to see how I could ever get my time and money investment back.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:21 PM   #1179
hilslamer
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I'm working on a device that would replace the iritrack, sentinel function, many of the GPS functions, some roadbook functions, and add a bunch of functions that don't yet exist in any current device. It's a very slow development process, partly because the demand is so small I struggle to see how I could ever get my time and money investment back.
Couldn't this be done with an Android app for a smartphone, etc.? I looked into this at one point but then was shyed away from it by several people because it had a GPS in it...but for experimentation or training, it would certainly work. I have foudn the compass in my Android phone to even be pretty danged accurate.

On that note, I have also looked into building a heads-up display of sorts that uses a similar compass in your helmet, and shows the heading off the brim of your visor so you can sight landmarks while riding a heading despite a jostling motorcycle beneath you...

I won't even begin to go into how augmented reality would splice into this possibility...

LOL, I can see myself mounting a tablet Android on a giant RAM arm and trying to explain it to all my friends who don't understand...
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:35 PM   #1180
F650Dakar_Norway
What off-season?
 
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Realistically - us gravel-touring non-competitors do well 80-90% of the time with a big-screen moving-map GPS with pre-planned routes or waypoints.

My interest is purely geek-based. I'l never do the Dakar or any other elite rally anyway since my occupation won't allow me enough off-duty quality training time. My busted knee ligaments also restrict me to far less demanding scenarios like guided dirt-road tours or bunch-of-mates gravel touring events. Still a happy camper, though. You do what you can and can afford. No worries

I'd like to navigate without a moving map, on headings and with a GPS functionality like the ERTF GPS - with waypoints activating an arrow, distance to WP and heading to WP - at a given distance from said WP's.

For me the 690RR is a dream come true, with bucketloads of capabilities and achievable NAV-riding challenges just lurking around the corner. A fully functional nav-suite would make me even happier.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #1181
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Originally Posted by hilslamer View Post
Couldn't this be done with an Android app for a smartphone, etc.?
A lot of functions could be done in an Android device (like roadbook, basic GPS functions, odometer). But I doubt you could make such a consumer device reliable enough to be used in rally racing. For the target I'm aiming for, there is no existing device that has the unique hardware I need to accomplish what I want. So I have to design it myself.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:23 PM   #1182
F650Dakar_Norway
What off-season?
 
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Tony, consider me ready for buying and testing one of your prototypes.
PM me the details when you're ready and I'll be happy to put in a deposit if needed.

I also know a few others in the Norwegian offroad community that might be interested in such a NAV device. I'll spread the word.

However, I reckon there should be a market for such nav devices in the rally-wannabee-circles as well as those seriously training for rally raid events. A functional user-programmable waypoint-based nav-device emulating the roadbook/COG/GPS routines necessary for rally raids has a market of its own.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:29 PM   #1183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F650Dakar_Norway View Post
A functional user-programmable waypoint-based nav-device emulating the roadbook/COG/GPS routines necessary for rally raids has a market of its own.
Agree, I'd be interested too, this could be a great option for training.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:34 PM   #1184
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However, I reckon there should be a market for such nav devices in the rally-wannabee-circles as well as those seriously training for rally raid events. A functional user-programmable waypoint-based nav-device emulating the roadbook/COG/GPS routines necessary for rally raids has a market of its own.
I think you are over complicating it. For training you need a roadbook, an ico and something showing cap heading (eg garmin foretrex showing heading). When you think you get close to the waypoint you can use your garmin to check.

The hard part is writing a roadbook - who is writing the roadbook and if it is you then you will remember most of the route anyway. Your best bet would be to get hold of old roadbooks from competitors and run stages of previous rallies.

Rally is a tiny community and you need to think carefully about number of potential customers for anything specifically rally related.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:51 PM   #1185
F650Dakar_Norway
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Originally Posted by mtrehy View Post
I think you are over complicating it. For training you need a roadbook, an ico and something showing cap heading (eg garmin foretrex showing heading). When you think you get close to the waypoint you can use your garmin to check.
Already familiar with that solution - and my preference is a system where I have both the true compass heading my bike rides in addition to a GPS system that only activates within a certain distance from desired waypoints.

That is a high-mounted GPS-compass repeater showing my true heading in magnetic degrees AND a handlebar mounted WP-activated GPS system which at best can be allowed to display heading to next waypoint with an arrow, compass heading and distance from WP.

The roadbook making is also a given factor to make this work.
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