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Old 06-02-2013, 04:03 PM   #18076
Dallara
Creaks When Walks...
 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Location: South Texas
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Laugh Ohlins...

Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
...Hey Dallara, so if the Ohlins experts were coming up with goofball spring rate suggestions, then maybe there IS a time to lie (trick) to your suspension guru?

It was one of the wildest things that ever happened to me with any suspension supplier...

We built up two CZ's in 2008, one vintage 250 one post-vintage 250, and I wanted the best shocks for my rider, so I went with Ohlins. You have to be "period correct" in damper configuration in AHRMA, so no reservoirs on the vintage bike, but we could run piggybacks on the post-vintage. Since these are not an everyday bike for them our Ohlins supplier suggested we call Ohlins USA for spring rates. We dial 'em up and they want all the proper measurements - swingarm length, upper and lower shock mount locations, swingarm angle we wanted to run, shock length we wanted, travel we were allowed by the rules, bike weight, rider weight, etc., etc., etc. We did all the measuring and data gathering, called 'em back, and they used their whiz-bang calculators to tell us "this shock with this spring", and we ordered up...

Shocks got there and we began using them. To be honest they got fairly close with the vintage mount, but the two-stage springs they sent us for the post-vintage bike were *WILDLY* off, with the shorter one being too soft and the longer one being *WAY* too stiff. Phone calls back and forth, re-checking of measurements, etc., and they insist those are the proper rates. Yet these rates are sooooo far off we think maybe we got some mis-marked springs, so we send 'em back so they can re-check 'em on the machine and at least make sure the rates match the markings. They call back and say "yep, they're marked right!" We ask 'em if we can simply swap out at least the longer springs for a softer rate, but they tell us no, they're used... They'd been run less than a 30 minutes and after all, they were what they told us to run... Didn't matter, we owned 'em. And they kept saying they had to be the right rate anyway, and that we needed to let the shocks break-in, so we had 'em send 'em back. We ran them for two race events, and Wade (my rider) said the rear suspension was horrible!!! With the too soft short spring the bike lost a lot of travel as soon as he sat on it, and even with moving the preload clips it was near impossible to get proper sag and still have the bike use even half its wheel travel...

Anyway, then we're at a big AHRMA National and there's a Ohlins trailer. The "engineer" there took one look at the springs on the bike and said they were "all wrong"... We told him our story and heartily agreed. He did some measuring, fiddling with his calculator, etc., and wrote down some part numbers for springs he said we needed. Unfortunately he didn't have any with him, so it was back home and to ordering some.

Well, this has gone on too long already, so I'll just say this... We got those springs and they were nowhere close, either.

Now, before you wonder... Yes, I had done my own calculations for spring rates before we ordered, but they didn't have single springs for those long twin shocks in the rate I wanted. I will freely admit I don't do well trying to figure spring rates for shocks that use two different springs, so that's why I went with their call. In the end I simply did some SWAG figuring and ordered up the springs I wanted, ignoring Ohlins recommendations, and then everything was rosy.

When we built the 125 in 2010 we went with Works Performance...

Dallara



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Old 06-02-2013, 04:15 PM   #18077
Dallara
Creaks When Walks...
 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Location: South Texas
Oddometer: 1,760
Laugh The truth comes out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by llamapacker View Post
...Someone like me trying to sell the bike, you are not doing me any favors for sure!

I made the choice to upgrade the suspension ( I was not in the group buy, I came later) did it myself. Nick told me to not report such as he does not sell fork kits. I honored that, but it also took out the DIY I like to share. Bitter sweet for me.

I didn't realize the entire purpose of these forums was to help you sell your used motorcycles... Or that you could make mods to your bike, like different suspension components, but nobody else was supposed to... Pardon me.

Of course, now we get a bit closer to the truth... You're actually only saying the OEM shock you have with 20,000+ miles is "as good as new" so you can sell the bike. OK, now I get it.

So you don't mind fudging the truth to buyers about your bike... At least not anymore than breaking a promise you made to Nick Stolten. After all, didn't you just tell us all about something you vowed to him not to make public?



Quote:
Originally Posted by llamapacker View Post
Dallera, I think you are full fledged A$$. You are going on ignore list, good bye!


Coming from someone like you, that's a compliment. One thing's for sure... I'll know now to never believe anything you say about your bikes, nor trust that you ever keep your word.


Dallara - with three a's an no e's... Don't wan'cha' to miss getting me on that ignore list.



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Dallara screwed with this post 06-02-2013 at 05:08 PM
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Old 06-02-2013, 04:20 PM   #18078
Red Dust
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Location: North of Brisbane
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I start to think I bought the wrong bike. I wanted a well priced long lasting bike and thought the ST would be that one. I knew about the turbulence issue from the stock screen so it was removed and made a shorty ($35) so that issue is more or less gone. The vibration issue is still there and so far cost me around $800 (heavy bar end weights which did not work anyway, foam grips, aftermarket muffler some said it does smooth the bike out a bit which I have not really noticed but like the sound of it at least).
Now I read about suspension that deteriorate quickly, I can accept that on a MUCH cheaper DL650 (that I was looking at first and maybe should have bought), this bike seems to be a money pit indeed. Still think the ABS/TC combo is great, the bike looks great too. Now a mate of mine at work bought the DL650 and he can enjoy more than $6000 cheaper bike, 30% less fuel consumption, 30-40% less insurance cost, no vibe issue. All the talk about changing the ST suspension after a short time was the drop!
Do not know about you guys but I got a limited budget and I was hoping to buy a bike without needing to spend too much the first years. Nice looking though.... Sorry just a bit grumpy this morning. Another one, is it common to feel a bit sore in the lower back after a couple of hours ride? Seat change +$500? :-(
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Old 06-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #18079
luni
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Location: Hoke County
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I got a CalSci windscreen and a Rox risers and that fixed all the comfort issues. Set the proper settings on the factory suspension and that took care of wallowing and soft feel. Clutch switch mod to uncork it a bit. Cases to hold my useless crap. Rumbux and K60s for some piece of mind off the beaten path. Daily commuting and weekends on the saddle haven't been an issue. I wanted to do all of those mods because I felt they improved what I wanted the bike to do.

Yes, you can reflash the ECU, swap the suspension, swap the seat, put streamers on your bar ends, and an 18 wheeler horn in your cup holdered heated vibrating backrest. It's aftermarket. You can do anything you want it you WILL get an improvement in whatever. Yamaha compromised to provide an affordable and reliable product that would net them a profit.

Don't let a few vocal people on the internet convince you you need a mod. Do whatever mods you feel you need and can afford. The great thing about this bike is you don't NEED to do any of these mods, there's just a significant benefit which could be said for just about anything in the most general sense.

Your wheels won't fall off, your seals won't leak, your transmission won't explode, your brakes won't lock up. Everything will work exactly the way they were intended for a bargain 1200cc adventure tourer for 10s of thousands of miles.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:04 PM   #18080
Red Dust
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Location: North of Brisbane
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Forgot to mention that I do like the shaft drive and it seems to last awhile as well.
Will keep it until it reach 10000 miles and if it still not broken in to get rid of the vibes (many on this forum says that it is a tight engine and need many miles to loosen up) then I might continue my journey with another bike.
Do not want to spend another cent. I got the Altrider gear rack, big foot, Givi E52 (from pre ST), TraX panniers (pre ST), ACD skid plate, Leo muffler, shorty hand made screen, Wolfman tank bag (pre ST), Yamaha head lamp protector and only need one more thing which is the carrier rack for my TraX cases.
The flash is tempting to smooth out the engine (if it takes away vibes I`m not sure) but that is another AUD$600 and having to be without the bike for some time.
Maybe in a year time I will laugh at it all and still be riding the ST or I jumped the ship. Either way we are here for a good time and just have to make the best out of it ST or no ST time will tell.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:17 PM   #18081
snakebitten
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Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Coastal Texas
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Come on guys. That's a bit of a stretch.

You can't change how you feel about your bike because of how somebody else feels about theirs. That's crazy!

I love my seat. It's oem. I've done 700 mile days.
I'm ok if others despise it. Many do.

Heck, if what others say matters that much, how could you have ever thought well of the Super Tenere? The bike is pretty much ignored and\or maligned by all the experts.

I regret if anything I have said robs you guys of your joy. But if it did, there wasn't much roots to your opinion.

I promise I have never had a moment of buyers remorse. I've posted 100's of glowing reports of this bike. My favorite of all time! I swear!

Wow.
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snakebitten screwed with this post 06-02-2013 at 05:42 PM
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:17 PM   #18082
fredz43
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Joined: May 2006
Location: Illinois- land of straight, flat, boring roads.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
I haven't ridden on the Stoltec forks. But I don't need to, to be able to confidently agree that the Ohlins aren't actually worth 3 times, or even twice as much.

But it doesn't matter. They are a proven and world renown cartridge. The circumstances called for the additional cost. And much like the pdp program for the S10, I made my deposit and then simply stuck to my guns. No regrets. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that there were moments during that looooong wait that I was tempted to pull out and go with Nicks great value. But my vendor is a first rate guy that needed me to man up. Lol
Hi Snake,

Yeah, I was looking forward to those forks also and if they had ended up close to the original estimate, I would have them, as I agree they are world renowned for suspension components and I am very happy with their shock. As it was, when we got the final total, it had unfortunately outpaced my budget priorities. I agree that Jaxon is a first rate vendor that took on this project. As it was, he had a waiting list of others that wanted these, so somebody else got mine.

BTW, I have loved this bike since the day it got here in July, 2011. It is one of, if not the most enjoyable bikes I have owned in over 47 years of riding. Since I intend to keep it a long time, I enjoy making a great bike even better for my personal use. If anybody else likes theirs completely stock or modified differently than mine, that is wonderful. Different strokes for different folks.

Peace.

fredz43 screwed with this post 06-02-2013 at 05:24 PM
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:33 PM   #18083
GrahamD
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Location: Blue Mnts Ozstralia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dust View Post
Do not know about you guys but I got a limited budget and I was hoping to buy a bike without needing to spend too much the first years...


If you read this forum you would think that what YAMAHA has built was a Ural copy.

Put it this way. If you paid $27K for a BMW you would still get all the above as well as shaft drive rebuilds, engine seals, 911 box so you can turn off the "service required" thing on the dash, new seats, etc etc etc.

All that people are doing is either adjusting the bike for them OR making Good things great. YAMAHA could do this from the factory if people would accept a YAMAHA for $25K. ($18K in the US)

Now bear in mind that the same people will that installed the Ohlins will be talking about fixing them in three years as well OR replacing them with the latest sky hook enabled electronic stuff with pre-emptive whinge buster and Android app.

All mechanical things wear out. Do the maintenance and it will wear out more slowly.

You should be concentrating on getting the vibes sorted and it would help to concentrate on that. Properly maintained this bike is a 300,000km bike. Maybe somewhere along the line you may have to fix a few things, but I bet it will a lot cheaper than flipping the bike every 3 years.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #18084
Red Dust
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Location: North of Brisbane
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Even if it does not sound like it (had a terrible week last week) I`m very positive that the ST will be sorted and maybe I should read less and ride more... think these forums are enjoyable though and a bit addictive.
Might take a holiday for a few weeks from the forums and come back refreshed! Cheers.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:58 PM   #18085
Anticyclone
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Location: Jackson, MS
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It blew me away when a simple throttle body sync fixed my vibes. I may have said it before, but sync those throttle bodies before spending any money on "fixes."

As for the suspension... I'm still on the stock setup, but an upgrade is in the works. When an un-named inmate upgraded the stock suspension on my 'strom it was a dramatic improvement, noticeable even for a slow rider like me. I'm sure the upgrade on the Tenere will be just as noticeable.

Once I get my ECU back of course...
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Old 06-02-2013, 06:23 PM   #18086
snakebitten
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Location: Coastal Texas
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Red Dust,

I wish I could wave a wand and make your one and only real issue just disappear.

And I have no way to defend this suggestion, but I would try one more inexpensive farkle that, on the surface, looks like it doesn't have a chance to help. Change bars. Get some cheap ones that have much less back-sweep.

You will only be out some time. Labor. Not $$$
So if it doesn't help, there is little remorse.

Oh, and I agree with the other suggestion. Ride more. Read less. :)

One last thing........lower back pain after a long ride.......get a motorcycle kidney belt. Cinch it up tight. It's a miracle worker for my long runs. And it is a fantastic proper posture aid.

But nothing completely eliminates a bit of saddle soreness on a long day. It's old bones. Price you pay for chasing the wind.
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Old 06-02-2013, 06:24 PM   #18087
avc8130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamapacker View Post
I made the choice to upgrade the suspension ( I was not in the group buy, I came later) did it myself. Nick told me to not report such as he does not sell fork kits. I honored that, but it also took out the DIY I like to share. Bitter sweet for me.
Guess it's not so "bitter sweet" now that you broke your end of the bargain and spilled the beans...
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Old 06-02-2013, 06:26 PM   #18088
avc8130
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Dallara,

You are arguing suspension clearly with guys who just don't get it.

"The best you know is the best you've ridden."

I'm pretty sure one of the guys you are arguing with has an 1100 spring on his STOCK VALVED shock! That should put some perspective to it.

ac
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:07 PM   #18089
WARRIORPRINCEJJ
Not in the clique...
 
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Location: South Central Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avc8130 View Post
...You are arguing suspension clearly with guys who just don't get it.

"The best you know is the best you've ridden."...

From what I've seen in this thread, your mantra seems to apply to linear power delivery/fueling, and spot-on ignition timing, too.


.
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:23 PM   #18090
Dirty bike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
OK, let's use your analogies...


If a car suddenly slams on its brakes in front of you in heavy traffic... Which car are you more likely to get stopped short of hitting it? The Ferrari or the Geo Metro? Regardless of your driving skill...

Child runs *RIGHT* out in front of you from between two cars parked on the side of the road, and you go to swerve... Which car are you most likely to make the save and miss the child in, the Ferrari or the Geo Metro?

You're on a mountain road, not in any particular hurry, listening to your favorite song on the radio, and entering a corner... As you go around it you suddenly see that not only is it a greatly decreasing radius turn, but also that some numb-nutz in a motorhome has crossed the centerstripe, taken a bunch of your lane, and you have to suddenly pull down tighter to avoid hitting him... Which car do you stand the better chance of accomplishing this maneuver, the Ferrari or the Geo Metro?

And in all of these scenarios let's make sure that it's *YOU*, or even someone less skilled and experienced than *YOU*, who is driving the car...

Or are you trying to say that you are just as safe riding a 19-teens Harley with a rigid frame as you are your Super Tenere with just its semi-stock suspension?

(you did change your rear spring, correct?)

Dallara
~
Take your example of the child running out in front of you...

Now, remember, you're going 25 mph. No difference which car you're in.

Translate this to the bike scenario, the lower skilled rider is less likely to be pushing the envelope of what the bike is capable of. I suspect you would have a great deal of difficulty proving an Ohlins equipped bike stops any faster than an bike with oem suspension under equal conditions and equal tires, same rider. Certainly not to any significant degree.

You're splitting hairs. Is the premier suspension from any company better than the oem? Oh hell yes. But it's not a life changing event. And some riders simply can't afford to drop money to replace something that works with something that works better, regardless of how much better, because what they have works.

And yes, I did re-spring my oem shock to better meet my load. Between my fat ass and all the crap I put on my bike, it's well beyond whatever loads Yamaha thought riders would have on the bike. We don't all weigh 155-175 lbs.

Would I have preferred to spend the coin on full custom suspension? You bet! I know what that's like and ride enough to appreciate it. I just can't afford to do that right now. Regardless of the need for it.

I'm not arguing the points about me, but for the average rider that rides probably less than 10k a year and wants stuff to make the use of his bike more enjoyable to him, for his needs. It's just silly to point out how great the custom suspension is, regardless of why you think it's so great, to someone that is never going to spend the money to replace something that already works for them.

Bottom line, for the average rider, custom suspension is way down the list of things they want to spend money on. And if you convince them to do so, they will be disappointed in the results for the money they spent.

I rode with a guy years ago that had 100k+ on his ST1100 on the stock suspension. On a road that had the average amount of imperfections, repairs, etc. he was complaining about all the bumps. I, on my full custom GP suspension on the much newer FJR, still with 80k+ was wondering "what bumps?". But you know what? At the end of the day he rode the same miles I did, got to the same place I did, and had just as much fun.
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