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Old 08-20-2013, 09:29 AM   #19426
Bill-66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceManSpiff View Post
VEGASGSA, it doesn't have to be against the laws of physics...maybe with synthetic oil less friction and less heat?
It is thermostat controlled..?? It is about physics...and engineering...what th poster describes, is impossible..unless something else changed and that's what I'm inquiring about...
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:47 AM   #19427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
It is thermostat controlled..?? It is about physics...and engineering...what th poster describes, is impossible..unless something else changed and that's what I'm inquiring about...
Maybe, like WestVirginia, he added some water too.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:49 AM   #19428
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Originally Posted by watrboy View Post
Been following this thread for a while and find the S-10 an interesting bike to fill the gap between the GS and my NC700X. I would like more power and the dependability is a plus. I have service and parts close by if needed for a Yamaha, BMW is over 300 miles any way I go.
Just a thought so far.
You may be dooming the NC to a lonely life if you pull the Tenere trigger.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:58 AM   #19429
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Originally Posted by pluric View Post
You may be dooming the NC to a lonely life if you pull the Tenere trigger.
I guess that's what friends are for. They put more miles on my XR650L than I do. But the good thing is they get their own bikes and enjoy riding like we do.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:38 AM   #19430
gharshman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
It is thermostat controlled..?? It is about physics...and engineering...what th poster describes, is impossible..unless something else changed and that's what I'm inquiring about...
It's not the same as your home thermostat. It's not trying to maintain the same stable temp in your engine. The engine is designed to always circulate water and oil, whether the engine needs it or not. The only variable is cooling fan on or off.

What I have noticed on my S10 is that the bike used to run 90 degrees higher than ambient, i.e., if it was 90 degrees outside, my bike ran 180. Now it runs 80 above ambient, or 170.

Not saying that it is linear either. When it was 40 degrees, seems like the bike ran about 165, but I can't remember exactly. Wasn't watching engine temp last winter.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:18 AM   #19431
Bill-66
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Originally Posted by gharshman View Post
It's not the same as your home thermostat. It's not trying to maintain the same stable temp in your engine. The engine is designed to always circulate water and oil, whether the engine needs it or not. The only variable is cooling fan on or off.

What I have noticed on my S10 is that the bike used to run 90 degrees higher than ambient, i.e., if it was 90 degrees outside, my bike ran 180. Now it runs 80 above ambient, or 170.

Not saying that it is linear either. When it was 40 degrees, seems like the bike ran about 165, but I can't remember exactly. Wasn't watching engine temp last winter.


No..it's exactly like the thermostat in an engine though..designed to run the vehicle at a constant temp.. It is what lets the engine go into closed loop for the fuel injection to come off the cold start enrichment circuit. What you have instead of a choke. It has to so that it can meet emission standards. The mapping is designed to work at a specific temp..so..no..it isn't variable as to ambient. FFS..

In very cold weather..it is POSSIBLE to never get an engine up to temperature..much like diesels..the outside air sucks heat off the motor as fast it's made..of course we're talking temps in the 0 to -20 F range..I've ridden my boxer, which is only air-oil cooled in 20F weather..the oil reaches the same temp it always does, just takes longer..it does this by the thermostat in the oil system..staying closed longer and not opening fully...TO MAINTAIN ENGINE TEMPERATURE.

If your bike varies that much..I'd take it to the dealer..you are probably leaving A LOT of fuel mileage on the table..

BTW..a thermostat IS designed to REGULATE flow..via temperature..temp is what operates it..it is not an open or closed gate..Have you ever seen an oil pressure gauge operate..it varies with RPM..So no..it does NOT circulate water and oil whether it needs it or not..it is demand based..in every engine.
What do you think is happening, when you start your bike and it's cold..there is ZERO water flow..until enough heat builds up to start the thermostat opening..then, a trickle starts to flow..this cools the water in the motor and the thermostat closes slightly..until some more heat builds..then the process starts all over again..until the bike is warmed up.. or the car..or the train..or the truck..or..etc..
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:31 AM   #19432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
No..it's exactly like the thermostat in an engine though..designed to run the vehicle at a constant temp..
What you're saying is basically true, but there are some details you're missing.

First, a bike's thermostat is not a true constant temp device - it works by opening further and allowing more water flow with higher temp, but with a higher heat load to dissipate, the bike will stabilize at a somewhat higher temp because a higher temp is required to make the thermostat open more.

Second, in hot weather and with low to moderate speeds, the S10 is often in the 180-210 deg F zone between the thermostat being wide open (flowing as much coolant as possible) and the cooling fan running. In this zone, the bike is essentially running without a thermostat and the temperature will go up/down with heat load.

Whether these factors come into play such that you could notice a true difference in running temperature with a change in oil type, I have no idea.

- Mark
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:41 AM   #19433
Bill-66
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
What you're saying is basically true, but there are some details you're missing.

First, a bike's thermostat is not a true constant temp device - it works by opening further and allowing more water flow with higher temp, but with a higher heat load to dissipate, the bike will stabilize at a somewhat higher temp because a higher temp is required to make the thermostat open more.

Second, in hot weather and with low to moderate speeds, the S10 is often in the 180-210 deg F zone between the thermostat being wide open (flowing as much coolant as possible) and the cooling fan running. In this zone, the bike is essentially running without a thermostat.

Whether these factors come into play such that you could notice a true difference in running temperature with a change in oil type, I have no idea.

- Mark
With a mechanical read gauge..possibly..but how did the poster test that change? Were the loads the same? Outside air temp? engine load? That his motor now runs 10 degrees cooler is an un-quantifiable statement..and, more to the point, false..

And yes..as well as when an engine is brand new..it will sometimes maybe usually run a LITTLE warmer..until it loosens up a bit..

I questioned this, because of the claim made to synthetics..there is enough bad information out there already...and stuff like this adds fuel to the fire..when we try to tell someone the benefits of synthetics..it's hard to spend your time unravelling what someone heard on the internet..and is a huge reason some people poo poo synthetics..because they pick this crap up off the internet, where it has to be true..

Trust me..drop in GS Spot..you can hear some crazy ass shiz about oil over there..
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:49 AM   #19434
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On a lighter note, is anyone here going to the southeast super tenere rally this coming weekend?
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:51 AM   #19435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
With a mechanical read gauge..possibly..but how did the poster test that change? Were the loads the same? Outside air temp? engine load? That his motor now runs 10 degrees cooler is an un-quantifiable statement..and, more to the point, false..

And yes..as well as when an engine is brand new..it will sometimes maybe usually run a LITTLE warmer..until it loosens up a bit..

I questioned this, because of the claim made to synthetics..there is enough bad information out there already...and stuff like this adds fuel to the fire..when we try to tell someone the benefits of synthetics..it's hard to spend your time unravelling what someone heard on the internet..and is a huge reason some people poo poo synthetics..because they pick this crap up off the internet, where it has to be true..

Trust me..drop in GS Spot..you can hear some crazy ass shiz about oil over there..
Victim of adverstising...

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Old 08-20-2013, 11:56 AM   #19436
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Victim of adverstising...

That's me...third from right..










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Old 08-20-2013, 12:42 PM   #19437
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I don't know why and am unsure of the cause. It is not scientifically measured either. No control batch. Could be purely anecdotal. I was just asking if anybody else had a similar experience. Maybe it is just break in.

If the Tenere wants the engine temp to be 180-210, why is it not reducing cooling water flow to achieve a higher operating temp when its running 170? My belief is that the thermostat is programmed to try and keep the temp below 220 (when my fan kicks on), not above 180, so not a true thermostat. All IMHO ... I could be out to lunch.

Not a mechanic, but to me running ambient +70 is better than ambient +80. I had not considered that synthetic would be less friction or more efficient at cooling. If true, it's a nice surprise. If not, trust me, I will not be emotionally scarred!

If y'all think it's all BS or un-related, just say so. I respect y'all's opinions as fellow S10 owners.

Thanks!
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #19438
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Oh, forgot to mention, MPG's seem to be unaffected. Still getting 39-43 based on how aggressively I ride.

Is it possible that the temp gauge is affected by synthetic? Meaning, engine temp is the same but the instrument cluster is reading different?

I'll run 20 miles of interstate on the way home and try to get a pic of my instrument cluster showing stabilized engine temp.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:24 PM   #19439
Dallara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
...when you start your bike and it's cold..there is ZERO water flow..until enough heat builds up to start the thermostat opening..then, a trickle starts to flow..this cools the water in the motor and the thermostat closes slightly..until some more heat builds..then the process starts all over again..until the bike is warmed up.. or the car..or the train..or the truck..or..etc..

Well, that's not exactly true...

There is not "zero" flow. Coolant circulates through the engine, driven by the water pump. It just doesn't flow between the engine and the radiator until the thermostat starts to open.

Just want to make sure we stay on the same page here.

Dallara



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Old 08-20-2013, 01:25 PM   #19440
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Originally Posted by gharshman View Post
If the Tenere wants the engine temp to be 180-210, why is it not reducing cooling water flow to achieve a higher operating temp when its running 170? My belief is that the thermostat is programmed to try and keep the temp below 220 (when my fan kicks on), not above 180, so not a true thermostat. All IMHO ... I could be out to lunch.
The S10 doesn't want the temp above 180 (actually 183 as shown below). It is just that this is the temp where the coolant is being circulated at full capacity - if the temp gets above this, then supplemental airflow is required as the liquid cooling part of the system is running at full capacity. Yamaha could have the cooling fan cut in at 183, but decided to wait until 210 as they view the 183-210 region to still be an acceptable temp range and they don't want to run the cooling fan unnecessarily. They could upsize the cooling system to reduce the excursions above 183, but this would require a bigger radiator (i.e., more weight and bulk). This is common with bikes - using small radiators and relying on temp excursions and supplement cooling fans to get acceptable operating temps.

Here's the thermostat opening schedule from the service manual. If instead of a ramp, this was a on/off step function, then the bike's temp would be constant with respect to load in this range, but this ramp means that bike's temp will vary in this range based on load.



So to summarize:

Below 160: Thermostat completely closed, bike temp will vary with load (but this usually is only a warmup transient - it would have to be extremely cold for the bike to reach steady-state operating temp below 160).
160-183: Thermostat opening will vary with load and bike temp will vary in this range based on load.
183-210: Thermostat wide open, bike temp will vary with load. (I doubt small changes in load due to different oils would result in enough of a change in operating temp to be noticeable, but again, I don't know.)
210-222: Cooling fan will cycle on/off to keep temp in this range, the cooling fan running more often as load increases.

- Mark

markjenn screwed with this post 08-20-2013 at 01:36 PM
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