ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Fluff > Shiny things
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 91 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 05-15-2013, 02:32 PM   #1636
assquatch20
Hoss Cat
 
assquatch20's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Chattanooga
Oddometer: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHW View Post
I never had any trouble tuning a Floyd Rose. Even the old Kahler I had was easy to tune and keep there. But it may very well vary from model to model, guitar to guitar. I've had a hardtail that wouldn't stay in tune before!
A couple things on 2-point vibrato bridges and tuning and whatnot:

Floyd licenses their bridges (I think Kahler might have before?) and the licensed versions are very typically a little lower in quality. However, Ibanez did improve upon the design a bit, eventually leading up to the ZR vibrato (not a Floyd product) that uses a cam style pivot (a la Kahler) and some other niceties to make a pretty fine bridge. Regardless, most licensed Floyd Rose bridges use a different route and typically don't hold tune as well.

A lot of folks will blame a bridge for tuning issues when it is, in fact, the nut gripping the string during tuning, bends, and thermal expansion/contraction. Beyond that, locking tuners also help. I would go as far to say that locking tuners and a standard nut that isn't binding do better for tuning than the locking nut by "clamping the string" most at its ends, rather than applying pressure just shy of the endpoint. Graphite nuts are good as they self-lubricate, but they do wear faster as well. A good compromise is a well-filed bone or brass nut with off-the-shelf lube (Big Bend's Nut Sauce I think).

Most importantly, almost no whammy bridge works well if it isn't set up right. As the knife edges wear on the pivots, it's like valves seating. You have to compensate for that periodically with spring adjustments, post replacement as the knife edges dig away at them, and eventually replacement of the unit once the hardened edges wear past "spec" (there is no spec). The licensed trems typically wear faster at this contact point. Changing string gauges or tunings will obviously throw the balance off as well with a change in tension.

I could get a bit more in-depth on setting up a vibrato, but I think I've forgotten half of what I knew back in the day. Also due to that, the ZR trem is probably old news in the guitar world now, but the best when it arrived, no doubt. It could compensate for tension changes up to and including a string breaking and still keep the rest in tune. Famously, Herman Li broke a string during a solo in the studio and kept on without issue. Also famously, Herman Li also sounds like Scooby Doo and plays too quickly with too many effects to decipher tuning in the first place.

If you really want a whammy bar and want it to work, try to aim for an official Floyd Rose rather than a licensed copy. Most guitars with the their own licensed version will require re-routing to fit an original. Also keep in mind that you won't be able to lift your string pitch with the unit too much, unless you have a countersunk route in the guitar, which requires some additional planning. Or buy something Ibanez makes. Even their non-locking Satellite series units coupled with a good nut and tuners do wonders. Kahlers are great as well for the cam system so there are no blade edges to wear out. But most use metal-to-metal rubbing to get the job done, so don't be cheap. Get one made by people who know a little about metallurgy and proper castings. Hint: most guitarists really don't know any of the science behind "good" and "bad" items.

Further reading should be done on the Tremol-no system if you like your whammy bar but not all the time. It's a pretty nifty device. Works especially well to improve performance with a decent non-locking tremolo.
__________________
Some things shouldn't be left like you found them.

assquatch20 screwed with this post 05-15-2013 at 02:41 PM
assquatch20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 05:46 PM   #1637
DangerMoney
Loud Helmets Save Lives
 
DangerMoney's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Escondido, CA, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Local Group
Oddometer: 1,418
For non-tremolo guitars, any decent non-locking tuner (Grover, Kluson, etc) will keep the guitar in tune. If it won't stay in tune with quality tuners, the problem is elsewhere. To help eliminate tuning problems:
  • When the string is tuned to pitch, there should be at least two and preferably three wraps of the string around the tuner post. Thus prevents the string from slipping on the tuner.
  • The nut should be kept well-lubed.
  • When tuning always drop the string BELOW pitch and tune UP to pitch. If you've done the previous things, this will even the tension along the string from the tuner post to the tail piece. The string hanging up at the bridge or nut can lead to uneven tension and the string goes flat the first time you bend.
I've used the above on PRS and Fenders with non-locking tremolos and they stay in tune.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie2wheels
Even so I wouldn't sit there like a shag on a rock, waiting to be punched up the arse into next week by the next negligent drongo who happens to come along.
DangerMoney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 11:45 AM   #1638
BMW Kurt
Taker of Pictures
 
BMW Kurt's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: People's Republic of the United States
Oddometer: 10,299
Tuning has never been an issue. It's hitting the bridge when you're playing down close. Accidental whammy!!
__________________
"We blew it." -- Wyatt in Easy Rider
Kurt Nugent Photography
My Riding Blog
My Travel Blog
BMW Kurt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 11:59 AM   #1639
josjor
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: The largest geological formation in the U.S.A.
Oddometer: 2,601
As the owner of a music store I get to re-string about a gazillion guitars a year and you know what pisses me off? Knots, double wrapping, or other tomfoolery at the machine heads. Anyone who thinks they need to do that in order to stay in tune should:
A: get a better guitar, or
B: get better strings, or
C: get a better setup done on their guitar, or
D: learn how to tune a guitar, or
E: quit playing entirely.

When presented with an argument for such idiotic techniques, I always do a gentle question and answer session with the proponent.

Q: What is a guitar manufacturer's job?
A: To sell guitars.

Q: How can they do that?
A: Make the guitar sound as good as they can and play as good as they can at a given price point.

Q: Name one guitar manufacturer that ships their guitars from the factory strung up in the manner that you are proposing.
A: There aren't any.

Why? Because it's not necessary.

OK. Rant over. Return to your regularly scheduled programming.
__________________
Neutiquam erro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand View Post
listen mister, we didnt evolve porcelin shitters just so we could squat to take a shit, like monkeys.
josjor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 12:03 PM   #1640
BMW Kurt
Taker of Pictures
 
BMW Kurt's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: People's Republic of the United States
Oddometer: 10,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by josjor View Post
As the owner of a music store I get to re-string about a gazillion guitars a year and you know what pisses me off? Knots, double wrapping, or other tomfoolery at the machine heads.
You mean like this? (NOT my guitar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

__________________
"We blew it." -- Wyatt in Easy Rider
Kurt Nugent Photography
My Riding Blog
My Travel Blog
BMW Kurt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 12:27 PM   #1641
assquatch20
Hoss Cat
 
assquatch20's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Chattanooga
Oddometer: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Kurt View Post
Tuning has never been an issue. It's hitting the bridge when you're playing down close. Accidental whammy!!
Then the Tremol-no might be something for you, if you're using a fully floating bridge. I like plain old wraparound bridges myself, but the occasional divebomb is missed on my SG.
__________________
Some things shouldn't be left like you found them.
assquatch20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 02:02 PM   #1642
BHW
Beastly Adventurer
 
BHW's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Oddometer: 4,080
I found an Ibanez Sa260FM today, that I really liked. Anyone here got any experience with them? I like what I've read in other reviews. One thing is a lot of people have commented on how light they are. The one I found today, was NOT light. It felt like a Les Paul!





__________________
2003 Aprilia Tuono
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency!
BHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 02:22 PM   #1643
assquatch20
Hoss Cat
 
assquatch20's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Chattanooga
Oddometer: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHW View Post
I found an Ibanez Sa260FM today, that I really liked. Anyone here got any experience with them? I like what I've read in other reviews. One thing is a lot of people have commented on how light they are. The one I found today, was NOT light. It felt like a Les Paul!





I've got the SA120, from before the maple top. It's a bolt-on neck though. You'd be surprised to know the maple top combined with more neck glued in there is probably where the additional weight is coming from. Mine is a pure mahogany body, sounds thick, but a very thin guitar. Non-players have noted that it looks small.

That looks to have the Satpro or SatproII bridge. Both are great with a roller nut and maybe upgraded tuners, along with that Tremol-no thing I was talking about. This is essentially the exact guitar I was talking about having a decent non-locking bridge. The earliest examples (like mine) with the original Satellite bridge were the worst, bridge wise, but the very first were also coupled with a piece of awful for a body. I've got one of the newer bridges waiting to go on it. The issue with the original is weak saddles that strip and let your string fall.

Mine sounds pretty good with any decent pickup, typically a thick sound. If guitar-voodoo is right, that maple top will help you reclaim some high end clarity as well. I don't think the newer ones can be bought as just a mahogany body, but if you could find one like that, mahogany only + newer bridge, go for it. However maple ain't so bad. The older models are likely a bit lighter, or consider the bolt-on ones. What's the price on it?
__________________
Some things shouldn't be left like you found them.
assquatch20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 02:46 PM   #1644
BHW
Beastly Adventurer
 
BHW's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Oddometer: 4,080
This is an actual photo:



Price is around 250....and I think I could get it for less. I really liked the shape of the body, reminds me some of my old Jackson. I was just a little surprised at the weight! I used to have a Jackson with a shaved down thin body, and it was comfy to play.


Same bridge:


__________________
2003 Aprilia Tuono
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency!
BHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 02:51 PM   #1645
assquatch20
Hoss Cat
 
assquatch20's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Chattanooga
Oddometer: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHW View Post
This is an actual photo:



Price is around 250....and I think I could get it for less. I really liked the shape of the body, reminds me some of my old Jackson. I was just a little surprised at the weight! I used to have a Jackson with a shaved down thin body, and it was comfy to play.


Same bridge:

Well that looks like a bolt-on, no? In either case, if you can deal with the weight, that's a pretty fair price. $200 would be a good deal. The only issues I've had are the stripping saddles (not a problem on that one you've got there) and it plays so fast you'd think there should be 2 more frets. I guess they wouldn't sell any of the "better" guitars if the SA had all the trimmings though.
__________________
Some things shouldn't be left like you found them.
assquatch20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 03:43 PM   #1646
BHW
Beastly Adventurer
 
BHW's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Oddometer: 4,080
Yes, the SA260 is a bolt on neck, I forgot to mention that. I was just confused about the weight, as a lot of reviewers talked about how light it was. I don't CARE about the weight, it's not like I'm playing two hour concerts! I sit in my living room! I was just surprised at how heavy it was! Must have been a knotty chunk of wood!

I'm hoping I can get it for around $225, out the door. We'll see.

I like that it has that Strat twangy sound, but not the Strat price. I'm floored by the asking prices of Strats lately. I've seen M.I.M.s with asking prices from $300-600...USED! And I know they sold them for $299 new, not THAT long ago. Hell, they have M.I.M. strats at the local guitar stores for $600+! I love how Fender rubs off some paint with sandpaper, calls it "relic'd" and adds $200 to the price! I wish I had never sold my G&L Legacy!
__________________
2003 Aprilia Tuono
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency!
BHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #1647
Hayduke
///SAFETY THIRD///
 
Hayduke's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Salida, coloRADo
Oddometer: 43,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHW View Post
Yes, the SA260 is a bolt on neck, I forgot to mention that. I was just confused about the weight, as a lot of reviewers talked about how light it was. I don't CARE about the weight, it's not like I'm playing two hour concerts! I sit in my living room! I was just surprised at how heavy it was! Must have been a knotty chunk of wood!

I'm hoping I can get it for around $225, out the door. We'll see.

I like that it has that Strat twangy sound, but not the Strat price. I'm floored by the asking prices of Strats lately. I've seen M.I.M.s with asking prices from $300-600...USED! And I know they sold them for $299 new, not THAT long ago. Hell, they have M.I.M. strats at the local guitar stores for $600+! I love how Fender rubs off some paint with sandpaper, calls it "relic'd" and adds $200 to the price! I wish I had never sold my G&L Legacy!
The crazy prices people are asking for M.I.M. used fender's is why I ended up buying a new Tele from Guitar Center... for about the same money.
__________________
"What these people need is some mental psychology."-Bonnie Abbzug

Hayduke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 07:13 PM   #1648
BHW
Beastly Adventurer
 
BHW's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Oddometer: 4,080
Yeah, I just can't wrap my head around the people asking $450 for a used MIM Strat!

I've seen American Standards for $550!!!!
__________________
2003 Aprilia Tuono
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency!
BHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #1649
josjor
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: The largest geological formation in the U.S.A.
Oddometer: 2,601
Actually, my "favorites" are where they run it through the eye of the tuning post two or more times or when they think they need some kind of knot there..



Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Kurt View Post
You mean like this? (NOT my guitar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

__________________
Neutiquam erro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand View Post
listen mister, we didnt evolve porcelin shitters just so we could squat to take a shit, like monkeys.
josjor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 07:38 PM   #1650
Zapp22
ZAPP - Tejas
 
Zapp22's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Tejas Hill Country
Oddometer: 13,655
love it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by josjor View Post
As the owner of a music store I get to re-string about a gazillion guitars a year and you know what pisses me off? Knots, double wrapping, or other tomfoolery at the machine heads. Anyone who thinks they need to do that in order to stay in tune should:
A: get a better guitar, or
B: get better strings, or
C: get a better setup done on their guitar, or
D: learn how to tune a guitar, or
E: quit playing entirely.

When presented with an argument for such idiotic techniques, I always do a gentle question and answer session with the proponent.

Q: What is a guitar manufacturer's job?
A: To sell guitars.

Q: How can they do that?
A: Make the guitar sound as good as they can and play as good as they can at a given price point.

Q: Name one guitar manufacturer that ships their guitars from the factory strung up in the manner that you are proposing.
A: There aren't any.

Why? Because it's not necessary.

OK. Rant over. Return to your regularly scheduled programming.
__________________
Zapp
"I will not let the White City fall... nor our people fail. - Aragorn
K4 WEESTROM Stealthfighter Black -SOLD - Invisible to Radar, '02 DR650SE SOLD ,'Ole 97' DR650SE My Fave K5 WEESTROM ADVbomber
Zapp22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014