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Old 07-13-2011, 08:25 AM   #151
facetjoint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
that is totally different than the attributes of what the folks here have said about the ceramic clutch disk interesting.

Also, the input shaft on the transmission has a spring loaded anti-shock device, I do not think the sprung hub is needed.

I will do some more reading on the ceramic clutches, perhaps It isn't worth the $100 versus your $30 clutch.
Yes you are correct about the trans. input shaft being spring loaded or an anti shock device. But in the end it is the rear of the helical cut gear at the very end of that shaft that gets slammed into the rear bearing. That ends up taking the brunt of most of the shock IMHO. And leads to the demise of some of the M-97 trannys. At least it was in my case. You can not buy just the gear that goes bad on the shaft for the M-97. BMW makes you buy the complete shaft assy. The gear off the M-94 is available and is an exact fit for the M-97 shaft. And a boat load cheaper than the whole shaft for the M-97. Plus, and this is a HUGE plus. The M-94 gear has substantial more surface area at the rear of the gear where it contacts the bearing. I'd love to take credit for all this info. but none of it is my doing. Others have posted this stuff, and I have merely benefited.

Don't take my word on the ceramic button clutch. It may well be the cat's ass cure all for what ails the BMW clutch. I'd be interested to see what your findings are? Let me know.
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:22 PM   #152
Z-Group
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Any more news on the proto-type clutches?
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:27 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Z-Group View Post
Any more news on the proto-type clutches?
I don't think I understand the question? And that is not a smart mouth comment on my part either. Are you asking about the Sachs VW disc disc I am working with now?

Thanks
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:42 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by def View Post
I worked at an independent VW shop in the 60s and changed many a VW clutch. Also, if the VW owner would spring for the extra $s, we would install a Porsche disk in the VW rendering the clutch almost industructible. BTW, I never observed worn clutch or transaxle input splines in all the clutches I replaced.

Also, I used to race with a fellow tech to see who could get the VW engine out and on the floor the fastest.........he won...14 minutes. A clutch disk swap was under an hour.
I did a clutch job on a '65 VW bus in 45 minutes including putting away the tools and washing my hands.

But that was the older bus that had the panel you could remove and just slide the engine back off the studs. And I had been in there before so I knew the things that needed to be disconnected, had them all taped/labeled.

On the other hand, I'm not a pro, I was a poor college student with more time than money.

The biggest factor was that panel you removed. I did a trans replacement in a '73 bus, no panel, and I didn't know to drop the engine and trans as a unit, so I wrestled with getting the engine out in that cramped space. Took me the entire day to swap the trans that way. And a lot of cursing.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:53 AM   #155
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From what I can observe. It looks to me like the BMW clutch disc has a stamped steel center hub. Where the Sachs VW clutch disc has a forged steel center hub. If this is truly the case. The forged hub is better by a long shot. But, this all has to do with the hardness of the steel used. Or the heat treating of the forged metal as well. And I do not have the tooling to determine or measure the hardness factors.
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:28 PM   #156
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Proto-type clutches

I should have directed my inquiry toward David, sorry for the confusion. But, anybody with news of a decently priced friction plate that works is a God-send. My clutch is starting to slip more and more. And, SWMBO, has granted me the approval of obtaining new clutch parts. And, being the cheap bastard that I am, i am looking for most economical solution.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:45 PM   #157
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Well I finally got the stamina to go out in the garage at 118 degrees with all the fans blowing on me. And yank this thing back apart down to the flywheel. The VW clutch disc slides perfectly on the input shaft of the transmission. Everything looks to be a go. I will need to take the VW disc to my machinist and have him take off .425 off the center hub. To match the dims. on the BMW disc. I am going to have him resurface both of the pressure plate halves. This may take a few days before I report back.
Once again. I'd like to have the sprung disc in there for the tranny shifting shock factor. But I just don't think it will fit. Unless someone else has done it. I'd sure like to know.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:38 PM   #158
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Well I finally got the stamina to go out in the garage at 118 degrees with all the fans blowing on me.



More Info.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:29 AM   #159
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Where's the BEEF?

Interesting that this thread seems to vapourize into the ether whenever somoene say's they're about to attempt it. Reminds me of that old burger commercial . . . Where's the BEEF??? Does this mean it didn't work? Please post that too - it's good to know. Nobody will criticize you for trying.

I put a stock BMW clutch disc in my '05 R1200GS last Fall because I couldn't find anything reasonably priced and/or available as a substitute. RB Racing was definitely vapourware at that time and I gave up dealing with their weirdness just on principle. TT's disc was stupidly priced as were other ones on the market. It ticks me off that all these aftermarket suppliers figure if someone paid $25 - $30k for a BMW then they can ask rediculously inflated prices for their accessories and replacement parts. Don't even get me going on BMW prices! So I tend to find a way to fabricate stuff unless it's a reasonably priced piece or my homegrown attempt would look like crap due to limitations in my skill or equipment.

What I can tell you is that there is a difference in the height of the hub spline between the original and the replacement clutch disc; the new one taller by about 5mm if I remember correctly. I had to swap out my input shaft as well due to some wear (not terrible, but didn't want to put a fresh disc on a slightly worn shaft) and the shaft spline was also longer than the original as well (approx. 10mm). So I expect there were some minor problems due to not enough contact of the splines through the entire travel when using the clutch. It's possible that with the clutch lever engaged, there was a miniscule amount of wobble if the disc spline rode off the end of the shaft spline even by a small amount. This of course would amplify over time and cause wear in the center of the input shaft from the other end of the disc spline, especially if the rider was holding the clutch in at stoplights or in heavy traffic. I purchased my bike used with 54k kms on it, so I suspect the previous owner was doing just that.

I have a hard time thinking BMW would just source stuff from anywhere and if the tolerances were different, oh well, whatever. I'm sure the additional metal was intentional. Not sure if I have the actual measurements still around, but I'm saying all this because if someone is still working on a clutch disc alternative, you might want to go to a dealer and ask to see a new clutch disc, take along something to measure and check the height of the hub before machining/grinding something down. If you compare it to an original, you might be making it too small.

So now there is more meat on the shaft toward the engine and more meat on the clutch disk toward the trans and I'm hoping to open it up this winter I'll find it just needs cleaning and re-lubing. I've already put 15k km's on it with the new disc and will have about 25k kms by the time I get at it - which is half of the mileage it had when I bought it. And I'm not babying it - I'm riding it like I would normally on the road and taking it off road sometimes on B minus level roads. (of course I'm not holding the clutch in at lights or long periods of idle though) Plus, I'm working on improving my off-road skills, so I'm feathering the clutch a fair bit. If there is some weakeness in the design for that model year, even with the extra metal on the new parts, it should show up.

I'm a feddler at heart, so if someone can tell me what VW or other type of ceramic 4 puck 180mm x 17 spline disc to order that will fit a R1200GS (with minor mods), I'd be more than happy to try it out and report back. I've still got the old pressure plates that seem to have enough material on them, so I could throw them back in with the experimental disc and try it for a season if it seemed to work. I'm pulling my bike apart each year anyway, because the cost of even OEM replacement parts is stupid, and after you've done this job once, it's not such a big deal to do it each year - especially when it's snowing out anyway.

V-Stormer screwed with this post 08-22-2011 at 11:19 AM
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:51 PM   #160
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Timing is everything. Unbelievable really. I finally buttoned this pig up yesterday. And hung all the Tupperware on it.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:09 PM   #161
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I fat fingered the computer somehow. Didn't mean to send the above email. Anyway. I finally got to do my shake down ride this morning of 50 miles. My bike is a 04/1997. Which means it has the first production run clutch in it as it was the original. The bike performed flawlessly. This is my first real ride since I got the bike in early Jan. of this year. The V.W. clutch disc I used needed to have 0400 machined off the tranny side of the hub. Now, after doing this. I believe there is adequate room inside the tranny bell housing for the sprung version of the clutch. Of which I wished I'd purchased in the first place. Now take note that I used my old pressure plates. And did not have them machined or resurfaced.

Realizing that 50 miles is no real test of this set up. On Wed. if all goes well I plan to do a Phx. Prescott, Sedona, Flag, Payson, Phoenix run with the bike. A close to 400 mile run. This will provide a huge set of variables of flat land, interstate, two lane, mountain switch backs etc. to let me know how this set up will work. There will be tons of trans shifting, engine braking and on and off throttle repetitions. So we will see how that goes.

As an added note I had to a major rebuild of the tranny on this bike. So having done this. It is part of my reasoning of making this run. Thus far this morning. The shifting was as good as I expected out of myself as this is my first BMW bike. So me learning how to gently and correctly load the shifter through the gears will be part of my learning curve.

More later, thanks for your patience.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:13 PM   #162
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One thing I totally forgot to add is this. The V.W. clutch mfg. by SACHS has a forged steel center hub in it with the clutch disc riveted on to it.

The B.M.W. oe SACHS disc had a stamped steel center hub. Forged is better in the fact that it is much stronger unless the stamped steel hubs were heat treated. Of which I do not know???

Just saying, ya know?
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:04 PM   #163
def
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I attended ASU and rode my 1960 TR6C Triumph from Chicago to Tempe for years through the Salt River Canyon.

I now ride an '01 GS.

I'll await your report on your VW clutch after your shakedown ride.




PS: I suspect the VW clutch will fare just fine.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:19 PM   #164
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It's ALIVE!!!

Hey, FACETJOINT . . . thanks for responding! I wasn't expecting to see anything for days.

So is your bike an '04 R1200GS? If so, that's the same as mine, (although I usually just say '05 because '04 almost never shows up anywhere on parts lists and it just confuses the hell out of the parts counter guys). A lot of these threads are about R1150GS clutches, which as we know has a different spline configuration, among other things. So I'm hoping you do have a R1200GS.

Regardless, good work on getting it to this point and you're wise to do that short run first. I'll be anxious to hear how the long ride goes. Of course we won't really know how well things are going, even if the ride goes well, until it comes apart again. That's the part that sucks as that's not a small thing to do. Doing it twice within a reasonably short period of time would not be fun. You can tell a bit about what might be going on through the starter port, but not much.

What was the part number of the VW clutch disc you used? Also do you know of the part number of the sprung one you would liked to have purchased?

Personally, I'm a little hesitant to go with a sprung disc because, (as you probably know), the transmission has a built-in damper (thrust) spring. My concern is that the compounded absorbtion of both may affect the clutch response negatively, rather than positively, making it mushy. I would think some tricky physics would need to be worked out to make sure the disc had the right spring strength to be compatible with the stock damper spring.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:22 PM   #165
def
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Use the rigid hub disk. The springs will not provide any benefit.
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