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Old 02-18-2010, 09:13 AM   #16
trc
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Nice job! Keep up the good work. Remember, its not what you buy, its what you build. www.timrobelconcepts.com
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:24 AM   #17
komatias
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Yup I am referring to the covers of the X-country X-challenge X-moto. The hole pattern is the same. The starter mounting is not however. See the foto below.





Results not published because I am too ashamed of them and I have only gone riding 10 times since May 2009 twice of which on the Dakar. Not that I am the world best rider. It is now in bits for an overhaul together with a K1200RS. The long distance racing doesnt happen in the UK as often and the costs can be pretty high.

However as I have continuously said on the Yamaha forks thread:
  • The front gets too high, you must raise the rear up to suit or drop the forks through the clamps by about 35mm. I plan on getting a 18" rear. This will quicken the steering and make things more dirt bikey. You are lucky to have adjustable length on the shock. I am looking at getting shorter dogbones made or get a set of lowering links for the Funduro.
  • The stock springs are too light (4.8N/mm) and the shims could do with some changing. I have installer 5.9N/mm springs but not tried them yet. These came from a super enduro R and required spacers and hydraulic stop mods.
  • The improvement over stock is out of this world.
  • Get proper tyres, the ones I have had on for the past year suck donkey balls (Swedish army specials)

komatias screwed with this post 02-18-2010 at 11:26 AM
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:15 AM   #18
sellmeyer OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias
Yup I am referring to the covers of the X-country X-challenge X-moto. The hole pattern is the same. The starter mounting is not however. See the foto below.




I can't really make out much about the engine cover in your picture. And what is up with that bike...it isn't yours is it? Where did the WP forks go?

I'll try to dig up some pics of plumby's bike or else charlie's. I think I know where to find them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias

You are lucky to have adjustable length on the shock. The improvement over stock is out of this world.
I opted specifically for the WP fusion for the adjustability knowing that there were a bunch of unknowns about balance lurking in my future. The TT option I think might sort those because it raises the back of the bike so much, but it either does or doesn't...no adjustment there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias

Get proper tyres, the ones I have had on for the past year suck donkey balls (Swedish army specials)
I too want an 18" rear wheel for the better posture and more tire options. i bought another complete rear wheel hoping to get my original hub re-laced to an 18...don't have the $400 for that right now, however.

The TKC80 was my tire of choice for a while, but as I started riding more dirt I opted for the Pirelli MT21 Rallye Cross. Big knobs. I like it for the terrain here in coloradol. Lots more options with an 18" rear...
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:48 AM   #19
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Nice progress on that bike!

What size tire are you running now? I did the calculations a while ago (for the DR) and most 18" tires will only raise the rear about 1/2" or so.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:27 AM   #20
komatias
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Sorry had the wrong foto. This is a friends bike. He is Workshop manager of a BMW dealer in south africa.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
Nice progress on that bike!

What size tire are you running now? I did the calculations a while ago (for the DR) and most 18" tires will only raise the rear about 1/2" or so.
Pirelli MT 21 Rallycross 130/90x17...

I agree that in most cases an 18" rim exchange from a 17" should give just 1/2"...you are, after all, dividing the 1" by 2. That being said I've read from others that you can get as much as 1" from the deal. Those claims were made based on actual measurements, IIRC.

I have not put my whole faith in those claims just as I have not bothered to do the calculations myself on a variety of tire sizes.

I'm interested in the 18" rear wheel for what 'extra' height I can get over the 17" AND for the better tire selection.

I believe that if the rear comes up short I can raise the forks to make up the difference.



-BTW, I had a look at your LC4 tread dealing with the engine swap...its going to take me a while to read that one. Looks fun.

Based on my experience and satisfaction with the F650GS rotax motor, if I owned an 640ADV, I'd be trying to find a way to dump the LC4 motor too. But because I own the Dakar, I'm investing in that chassis.

-cheers
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias




Okay, that looks different. That isn't what I saw on plumby's bike; his was shiny. Do you know if the post 2002 dakar riders on F650RR's pioneered the change to the LHS engine case to allow for the clutch basket removal?

Did this guy in South Africa swap engines or just the case?

had a look at the fiche for the G650X-challenge




The BMW price for all of the parts on this page is ~$430USD with $220 being #1 and $130 being #3

-pretty spendy for an upgrade to an old motor...the average sale price of a used F650GS engine here is about $750.

Maybe someone could pull exact dimensions and do a tracing of #1 for me when their motor is apart. I know that I could get someone to mill #1 for me for far less $$$ and I could buy #3. Maybe I could save ~$125 that way.

Anyway, this isn't important right now. The clutch isn't a problem I have just yet.

-still interested in knowing what was on the SF bike.

sellmeyer screwed with this post 02-18-2010 at 12:40 PM
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:24 PM   #23
tmotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias
Sorry to confuse. When doing long distances on sand and generally loose stuff you can burn out your clutch. The f650RR guys like Simon Pavey and Nick Plumb had left hand covers specifically machined to allow them to inspect and replace the clutch plates without having to change oil or remove the whole of the left cover.

Since you are messing around with the bike you might be able to make use of the g650X left hand cover. The idea came to me when I came across a post of yours saying something about an oil cooler and a flexible oil hose.
You can do that with the OEM cover though. Same way you can change the water pump without dropping the oil. Just lean it to a wall or post at about 10-15 degrees.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmotten
You can do that with the OEM cover though. Same way you can change the water pump without dropping the oil. Just lean it to a wall or post at about 10-15 degrees.
I think the point of the revision to the LHS engine case wasn't just a matter of avoiding the an oil drain. It was to quicken and simplify the process of getting at the clutch.

Removing the LHS engine cover on the 652 engine is a PITA. Its held on with a bunch of bolts and has a really big gasket that is easy to tear. And you have to remove the oil pipe to get it off unless you have replaced the pipe with a flexible line and routed it to avoid the interference with the case.

Having replaced two water pumps I can see the benefit of the case revision in terms of clutch service. The new case allows unobstructed and simple access to the clutch. The gasket can likely be reused a bunch and would be easier to manage. No crush washers to replace since you're not touching the oil pipe. The only challenge is getting the rack and pinion alignment when putting it back on...something probably a lot easier to do when you don't have to align such a big case at multiple points.

The revision makes sense
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:20 PM   #25
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have a look on this page:

http://www.rgengineering.co.uk/charleyboorman.html
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:31 PM   #26
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yep..what I thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias
yep...looks familiar



I wonder what that outfit would sell those for if they did another batch.

I'm not into the bling aspect of their unfinished product; something more OEM-like is what they originally had in mind. That would be to my liking.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:50 AM   #27
komatias
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My guess would be....more than a brand new BMW part.

I am going to wait a bit untill people start binning their X-challenges. Plenty of X-motos in the scrap heap though.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:20 AM   #28
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answers to a few questions


-some answers to some Q?s
 
In terms of parts selection during the thinking stages I started looking for 640Adventure bits early on because I figured it was closer to the F650 specs than the 950. It turned out that Komatias had already done the 950 swap by the time I started shopping so his feedback on the install drove me to the 950; it turned out that I couldn't find any 640 parts anyway. I don't know much about the 640ADV clamps and I'm not sure that they would be suitable for use on the F650. One might be able to go that route because the forks are pretty much the same thing as the 950 forks; I believe the parts are identical for the late model 640ADV bikes and the 950ADV, just sprung differently. The hub and axles are the same too. I know that the 640ADV is lighter than the F650 and the 950ADV is heavier; it is possible that one solution is over sprung and the other under sprung for the F650, but I've read a trend that the 950 tended to be under sprung. If so, that would make the 950ADV front forks almost spot on for the F650. That is the word anyway and I am looking forward to validating it.
 
-The front wheel off a 640ADV would be a 1.6x21 just like the F650. The 950 uses a wider rim...which is why I went with a 640 front wheel. The hubs for the late models are identical because the 640s picked up twin discs in 2006.

I purchased most of my kit from an inmate here, forks, clamps, axle, spare front hub, brake calipers and mounting brackets; got the wheel from an inmate here; got the Emig handlebar clamps from an inmate here (so I could run the heated grip wires out the bottom of the handlebar-stock handlebar clamps have a solid member on the bottom that would interfere with this); got the steering stem from an inmate here; you get the idea.
After I committed to buying my front end, I found an even less-used 950 front end on ebay that sold for a touch over $500-clamps, forks, handlebars, axle, front brake master cylinder.
Anyway, they don't come up as often as the yami stuff, but the forks and clamps are out there.


Regarding the iead of using the F650 master cylinder to drive twin discs in the front, it won't drive them enough to give any better braking than a single disc. This is because the master cyinder can only move so much fluid to the calipers; that fluid will get distributed to both calipers equally such that neither set of brake pads will really clamp down on the discs like one would want. The end result might be with the same net braking effect as a single disc setup. Best case scenario is that it would give a bit more braking effect with the original master cylinder, but that would be at the cost of modulation with the lever...the lever would end up going all the way to the handlebar and it would feel funny or bad. I just don't think there is any way to get around this problem without going with the master cylinder for the KTM.

-there are issues with getting that master cylinder to fit on the BMW combo switch housing. But this should not be a discouraging remark, however...there is a solution and it can certainly be found.

Regarding the idea of using ABS on the WP front end, the ABS ring can be fitted to the KTM hub. I put it on my front hub on Tuesday...it could be made to work by fabricating 6 clips that would bolt onto the ring and slip over the hub. I figured out that this could be done with a single piece of machined aluminum and cut into 6 clips for the 6 bolts on the ring. The bolts would nest nicely between the brake rotor bolts so that it would end up looking like a 12 bolt pattern on the ring side of the wheel. This is a pretty simple deal...the front wheel sensor would be an easy thing to sort too once the ring was in place. ABS should be little trouble.

Regarding the steering stops and steering lock, yes I got these both to work out. When I did this I really didn't have a reference point because Komatias had not needed the steering lock and he solved the steering stop issue, at least initially with some padding between the fork tubes and the frame. I decided I needed the steering lock to work like it originally did and I wanted to make use of the adjustable steering stop bolts on the lower 950ADV triple clamp. For the lock, I welded a curved piece of steel on top of the original frame-mounted steering lock and mounted the BMW key holder in the KTM position on the clamps. The result there was that I had to notch the right side of that piece of added steel and put a hole in the center of it. The handlebars now lock at left and right as before, but the holes are in the middle and right edge rather than the symetrical orientation of the original. Later I saw that the guys on Garagenight.tv did a much better job of this than me because they achieved the same result with two pieces of machined steel that bolt onto the frame instead of being welded. I like their solution better but the results are the same.
-Kiwi Pete over at garagenight.tv had an altogether different solution than me for the steering stops. His steering stop solution was more trial and error than mine and utilized the original steering stop on the frame, which is a non-adjustable solution. While I thought about doing something to the lower clamps to utilize the original bump stops on the frame, I knew that I would end up needing that area for a new front fairing bracket. My solution was to add a piece of steel to the frame and use the adjustable steering stops on the lower triple clamp. This works well, in my opinion, but in my case I didn't make the piece of steel big enough to give the best contact area to the steering stop bolts...still it works. As it stands now the bolt heads on the lower clamp strike the steel bar just off center so that there is a bending moment on the bolt. I might add more steel down there later if it turns out that this causes the bolts to bend. I believe it would take a serious hit to do anything to the bolts, so I'm not to worried about it since I plan on taking things easy during the break-in period. I believe my solution is sound.and I will be able to add more contact area for better alignment on the bolts if I need to.


Another thing I didn't mention earlier deals with offsets, or how far forward of center the forks are from the steering tube. I know the 950ADV triple clamp offset is 18mm. The 950SE is 20mm. I don't know about the 640ADV and I also never measured the stock F650 offset. Anyone have any offset specs on the F650GS and the 640ADV? I have my original top clamp lying around and I'll see about measuring it at some point.

There are plenty of threads about offsets elsewhere in the forum, but my $0.02 is that the F650 could use more offset. If 18mm is a bit more than stock, great-I'll get that with the 950ADV clamps. It will take some testing to see what the best solution is before I can speak about the idea of going with 20mm offset clamps like those found on the 950SE. I'm hoping that I can contribute some feedback along with Komatias, Kiwi Pete, and Wanyne down under. Maybe we can 'normalize' our data somewhat and sort out how the varying options affect the handling of the bike..?

-it is worth stating that if the 640ADV has less than 18mm of offset, it is unlikely that this would be suitable for use on the F650 regardless of what the stock offset dimension is. This is because the forks would end up limiting the steering angles. As it is now, the 18mm offset 950ADV clamps will fit on the F650 if a bit is cut out from the front fairing bracket to give clearence to the fork tubes. The loss with this isn't material, however, is in steering angle because the forks are so big up top that they end up bashing the frame before the original steering limits are reached. With less than 18mm of fork offset this steering angle loss would be too great IMHO. The steering loss is small enough with 18mm of offset on 48mm WP forks that I don't worry too much about its impacts on the bike...manually pushing the bike around tight spaces is probably where it will suffer the most. I don't ride in the woods enough to need to worry about an extra 15 degrees on the trail, or whatever it is. We should collectively measure the resulting steering angles with the 950ADV frond end!

...back to the 20mm offset. If the stock offset of the F650 is 18mm, then 20mm would probably feel great and with that one would get back some of the steering angle loss. To my knowledge, the only options for 20mm offset triple clamps are the 950SE clamps and the aftermarket kit sold by Gary Emig. More on that later I guess.

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Old 02-19-2010, 08:41 AM   #29
LukasM
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Most 03-07 EXC and SX triples are 20mm offset and will fit the 48mm forks. They use solid mounted bar clamps. I have an extra set if you can't find any locally.

640 Adv has 18mm offset.

The 640 Adv with the twin disc hubs (04-07?) comes with an 1.85" (or even 2.15"?) Behr rim, which will bend very easily. If you ride offroad you want an 1.6" Excel (A60 is best) or DID DirtStar.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
Most 03-07 EXC and SX triples are 20mm offset and will fit the 48mm forks. They use solid mounted bar clamps. I have an extra set if you can't find any locally.

640 Adv has 18mm offset.

The 640 Adv with the twin disc hubs (04-07?) comes with an 1.85" (or even 2.15"?) Behr rim, which will bend very easily. If you ride offroad you want an 1.6" Excel (A60 is best) or DID DirtStar.
Its good to have confirmation on the 640ADV offset as well as info about the rim sizes. I thought I was sure the front rim was a 1.6"x21, but I see my error. I guess I should measure mine and see what I have, its either a 1.6 or 1.85 custom Excel jobber.

I have an SX lower clamp from which I extracted my steering stem; I knew that it was for a 48mm set of WP forks, but I forget why this was not originally an option...?

I know the SM clamps are too wide to fit; maybe the SX was on the narrow side and required a different hub and assorted spacing? I remember, it wasn't so much that an SX setup wouldn't fit, it was that I didn't want to mess with suspension tuning. My aim was to get something close straight out of the box and the 950ADV was the right length and close to being sprung correctly.

Maybe the SX stuff would fit, I'm not sure.
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