ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-12-2010, 05:36 AM   #61
Ilja
n00b
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Oddometer: 6
I was going to replace the oilline to the top-end for a bigger one, until I stumbled on to these threads. Started thinking about the dry-sump system for a while.

First of all, I thought that the oilpassage to the crank and top-end is splitted after going through the oil filter, so the check-valve controls them both. I'll check on this this tonight or tomorrow...(got my engine dissassembled)

I think the reason the "pressure"-side oilpump needs to be primed is the check-valve.. If there's air in the pump and the pump starts spinning, air simply compresses a bit and doesnt push the check-valve open. This causes the oil not flowing in.
The scavenging-pump works the same, but doesn't have a check-valve.. so that one does prime itself.

The main reason for the check valve is to keep oil in the frametube when shut down. This check-valve would make no sense if oil could flow away from the reservoir through the crankpin. If the oil can flow away through the crank when the engine is shut down you might as well remove the check-valve so that you don't need to prime the pump anyways...


An oil-starvation theorie:
So in case the check-valve does control the crank-pin and top-end flow:
When the check-valve doesn't seal well the reservoir drains to near emtyness. When you start the engine the pump pumps the last bit of oil away and it sucks in air...after this new oil arrives by the scavegingpump but its already too late. It will take a while before the pump will be primed again, or may not happen at all...

If the oil to the crank isn't controlled by the check-valve this could happen also..

Have to investigate this further..

Sorry for my bad english, I'm Dutch.
Ilja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 06:03 AM   #62
Ilja
n00b
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Oddometer: 6
If you remove the check-valve it would mean the pressure-pump would function the same way the scaveging side does. (I think)
It should prime itself when the check-valve is removed.. I'm going to test this weekend!

The bad thing is that on startup it could take a while before oil returns in the resevoir before the pump...
Then again, if it primes very quickly without the check valve and the oil is pumped in the reservoir quickly on startup this might actually work.

Time to do some experiments!
Ilja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 07:19 AM   #63
Ghost_Mutant
looking for bionics
 
Ghost_Mutant's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: border of granite & flats
Oddometer: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrminbanshee
1. check you check valve.
2. check the seals in the oil pump
3. the seal around the shaft could be bad.



I'm planning on doing as you suggested, replace all seals in my pumps.

You have the old style oil pump like mine. There are no shaft seals in the older pumps.

The check valve seal is part #8. The outlet orifice O ring is part # 23/24. I'm also going to order an extra spring (#9) and a cotter pin (#27).

You should check out the pump before ordering parts so that you can inspect and see if any thing else needs to be replaced, like the plunger (#7) or maybe more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrminbanshee
I also am going to try and get new steel braided lines made for the oil lines that run frmom the engine to the frame. I hope my local brake and hose line place can make them the did the brake lines so i hope. this may take me a while to get the parts in, and installed but i am going to do this before i run the bike. I dont want to jepordize this brand new top end. So when i finish making these changes i will let you guys know if it still has that slow drain.

I also think i am going to upgrade to the 47 tooth sproket. Now that is from 88-92 on the xr600r if i remember correctly. Please let me know if i am wrong or i can just got to fiche. This new sprocket is the same size for the shaft correct? So it will be a direct replacement but will be quite a bit better for the engine.

This is what i have been able to pick up from this thread please let me know if i have any of the info wronge!

Thanks for the help
Sb
Oops, it's still too early in the morning for me! So I'm now editing this post to correct. I reread after posting and see you are going to replace the external supply line with braided line. Let us know how that works out.

I'm going to replace my oil pipe line with a oil flow sensor similar to this one HeadTrauma linked to earlier. That's the only reason to change the pipe itself in my opinion. I'm in agreement with others that the upper banjo bolt is the limiting factor for top end oil flow. So changing the pipe without changing the banjo bolt shouldn't do much other than slightly change the pipe fill speed upon start up. Once full of oil, the flow out the banjo bolt should be the same. Yes, I initially thought you were talking about replacing the oil pipe to the top end.

Besides the 47 tooth gear and the oil pump shaft seals, that banjo bolt is the only other item that changed in the oiling system as far as I can tell. I'm going to pickup some of the new banjo bolts for my rebuild. Part number is: SKU: 15531-KN8-730

I purchased a used set of 47 tooth oil pump gear and new crank driving gear from a dealer. The parts were off of a XRL.

Oil pump gear Part # SKU: 15105-MN1-671
Crank driving gear Part # SKU: 15130-MN1-670 (it's in the clutch diagram)

Don't rely on anything I've posted here. Always double check the posted part numbers to make sure there were no mistakes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilja
If you remove the check-valve it would mean the pressure-pump would function the same way the scaveging side does. (I think)
It should prime itself when the check-valve is removed.. I'm going to test this weekend!

The bad thing is that on startup it could take a while before oil returns in the resevoir before the pump...
Then again, if it primes very quickly without the check valve and the oil is pumped in the reservoir quickly on startup this might actually work.
I attempted to post over at TT, but it's in moderation

I'd add to your theory that it's also possible to entrap air in the pump during a bad crash when the oil tank is horizontal or perhaps inverted with the engine running.

Having said that, I do not fully understand how the entrapment of air actually works. It's hard for me to visualize a pocket of air that would prevent the oil pump from working. At most, I think the air entrapment would just drastically lower the amount of oil being pumped. But that's probably enough to fry the top end.

You could remove the check valve and then just add in a manual or electric valve to the supply line. When you shut down the engine, just close the valve to keep the oil in the tank. You would just have to remember to open the valve before starting the bike for the next ride

One more quick edit here. Perhaps an electric toggle valve, installed between the frame tank and the pump inlet hose, would solve the problem. Hitting a switch before staring the bike would open the valve. This switch would also be connected to kill switch to keep the bike from being started when the oil was shut off. Upon shutdown, just turn off the bike by the same switch and the flow control valve closes keeping the oil in the tank.

I'd try your experiment if I had the flow sensor attached to the engine

Since I don't have a flow sensor, it's on the list of things to do this weekend.

Ghost_Mutant screwed with this post 03-12-2010 at 07:34 AM
Ghost_Mutant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 07:58 AM   #64
Cobia235
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Cobia235's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norwich, CT
Oddometer: 230
Oil Pumps 101

FYI a good source for how the oil pumps work! Might shead some light.

http://www.dansmc.com/4_stroke_oilpump.htm
Cobia235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 07:58 AM   #65
HeadTrauma
\_(ツ)_/
 
HeadTrauma's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Antelope Valley, SoCal
Oddometer: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Mutant
1.) That is awesome, thanks for posting that link. If I knew how to insert the youtube videos from Vanpelt's post for everyone to see, I would. However, I couldn't access his still photos. If you can show them here, that would be cool.

2) One factor of many to explain how the frame tube drains with the engine off? Or just one factor of many to explain a fried top end?

3.) I think the only thing left that hasn't been talked about with regards to a slow frame tank leak is the inlet seal between the pump and the right crankcase housing. If the inlet pathway is all sealed up, with no leaks, and the check valve was tight, and the shaft was sealed good; then is stands to reason that your frame tank shouldn't drain while the bike is parked overnight. If I had a slow frame tank leak, I would fix it knowing what I've learned here. Need oil in that frame tank to lube the crank and top end.

4.) I don't think any of the XL600s have the later pump from the showroom. Didn't that change happen later in the XR600 run?

5.) The original XR500 wasn't designed that way. Those triangular holes are there by design and they will leak out oil from the chamber. That is oil that isn't available to lubricate the cam/lobes. I think these holes are cast in the head, not machined. But I'll try to look at them again this weekend.

6.) Apparently Honda changed the design and sealed up the chamber on later model RFVC heads. I wonder when the change occurred?

7.) You want to see a photo of those triangular holes??? Well all you had to do was go back one page in the thread to see this:
1.) Cripes, it looks like TT is PITA and won't let you view links when not logged in. There's not much to see, but I saved and hosted these myself anyway:



2.) Either one.

3.) I Agree. For the sake of comparison, my bike has very little drainback even after sitting for weeks. It never drops more than 1/3 below the full mark. The PO said that it had been "gone through by XRs Only." I sort of believe it, but suspect that he was told that by whomever he got it from. In other words, all the parts related to the leakdown may actually be relatively new.

4.) It's hard to keep up with every little change Honda made from '83-93, but I would guess that the oil pumps were changed for the '88 model year.

5.) Perhaps, but the twin carb engines don't seem to have any more top end problems than later engines.

6.) Looking through my pictures, it looks to have been changed between '86 and '87.

7.) I see what you're talking about now. I was looking for trianglular holes in the head, not chamfers on the cam bearing cup. ;)
__________________
1995 XR628R -Lots of goodies...room for more.
"Another breakdown, suicidal shakedown,
Feels like I'm livin' on a chain gang."
HeadTrauma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 08:09 AM   #66
Ilja
n00b
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Oddometer: 6
Btw, just a simple clear tube beside the frametube-reservoir would be usefull checking if there's oil in there.
Ilja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 08:54 AM   #67
scrminbanshee
Awsome
 
scrminbanshee's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: puyallup wa
Oddometer: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Mutant
I'm planning on doing as you suggested, replace all seals in my pumps.

You have the old style oil pump like mine. There are no shaft seals in the older pumps.

The check valve seal is part #8. The outlet orifice O ring is part # 23/24. I'm also going to order an extra spring (#9) and a cotter pin (#27).

You should check out the pump before ordering parts so that you can inspect and see if any thing else needs to be replaced, like the plunger (#7) or maybe more.



Oops, it's still too early in the morning for me! So I'm now editing this post to correct. I reread after posting and see you are going to replace the external supply line with braided line. Let us know how that works out.

I'm going to replace my oil pipe line with a oil flow sensor similar to this one HeadTrauma linked to earlier. That's the only reason to change the pipe itself in my opinion. I'm in agreement with others that the upper banjo bolt is the limiting factor for top end oil flow. So changing the pipe without changing the banjo bolt shouldn't do much other than slightly change the pipe fill speed upon start up. Once full of oil, the flow out the banjo bolt should be the same. Yes, I initially thought you were talking about replacing the oil pipe to the top end.

Besides the 47 tooth gear and the oil pump shaft seals, that banjo bolt is the only other item that changed in the oiling system as far as I can tell. I'm going to pickup some of the new banjo bolts for my rebuild. Part number is: SKU: 15531-KN8-730

I purchased a used set of 47 tooth oil pump gear and new crank driving gear from a dealer. The parts were off of a XRL.

Oil pump gear Part # SKU: 15105-MN1-671
Crank driving gear Part # SKU: 15130-MN1-670 (it's in the clutch diagram)

Don't rely on anything I've posted here. Always double check the posted part numbers to make sure there were no mistakes.
Why did you go with a new crank driving gear? After having a look at the fiches on babbitts it shows that, that crank driving gear went up one tooth in the later years(the one you are talking about). If thats the case then by running the new oil pump gear (thats one tooth smaller one) then doesn't that defeat the purpose? Or am I miss understanding something. I would thenk the way to go is to use the smaller crank gear (the one orginally on my xl) With the smaller pump gear (the one from the later xrs) so that way you can maximize the amount of flow out of you pump.

Thanks
Sb

P.S.
Sorry for all the parentheses just want to make this as clear as possible it gets confusing when talking about 2 bikes that are so closly relatde.
__________________
07 wee strom
85 xl600r its dead!
scrminbanshee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #68
HeadTrauma
\_(ツ)_/
 
HeadTrauma's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Antelope Valley, SoCal
Oddometer: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrminbanshee
Why did you go with a new crank driving gear? After having a look at the fiches on babbitts it shows that, that crank driving gear went up one tooth in the later years(the one you are talking about). If thats the case then by running the new oil pump gear (thats one tooth smaller one) then doesn't that defeat the purpose? Or am I miss understanding something. I would thenk the way to go is to use the smaller crank gear (the one orginally on my xl) With the smaller pump gear (the one from the later xrs) so that way you can maximize the amount of flow out of you pump.
The part you're missing is that the larger crank gear must be used with the smaller pump gear or the teeth will not mesh correctly. The distance between the crank centerline and the pump centerline is not adjustable, so putting a larger diameter gear on the crank requires a smaller one on the pump.
__________________
1995 XR628R -Lots of goodies...room for more.
"Another breakdown, suicidal shakedown,
Feels like I'm livin' on a chain gang."
HeadTrauma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 09:42 AM   #69
Ilja
n00b
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Oddometer: 6
I was just thinking:
Could it be that the weight of the oil in the reservoir presses in the weak spring behind the checkvalve? Could be another way of oil draining away...
Ilja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 09:57 AM   #70
HeadTrauma
\_(ツ)_/
 
HeadTrauma's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Antelope Valley, SoCal
Oddometer: 1,257
That was my first suspicion until I checked on a spare engine I have. The spring is not as soft as I thought it would be, but I don't have a good way to test the spring rate, so I can't determine if the weight of oil can actually unseat the check valve.
__________________
1995 XR628R -Lots of goodies...room for more.
"Another breakdown, suicidal shakedown,
Feels like I'm livin' on a chain gang."
HeadTrauma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 10:07 AM   #71
scrminbanshee
Awsome
 
scrminbanshee's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: puyallup wa
Oddometer: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadTrauma
The part you're missing is that the larger crank gear must be used with the smaller pump gear or the teeth will not mesh correctly. The distance between the crank centerline and the pump centerline is not adjustable, so putting a larger diameter gear on the crank requires a smaller one on the pump.
So if is the case then doesnt this then cancel out the faster pump senario since the crank gear is has one more tooth?
__________________
07 wee strom
85 xl600r its dead!
scrminbanshee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 10:08 AM   #72
Ilja
n00b
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Oddometer: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadTrauma
That was my first suspicion until I checked on a spare engine I have. The spring is not as soft as I thought it would be, but I don't have a good way to test the spring rate, so I can't determine if the weight of oil can actually unseat the check valve.
Maybe pressing the spring down on a scale by a slide caliper. :)
That way you can see how much it is pressed in, and the needed force to do it.
But you would need a steady hand for that lol!
Ilja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 11:02 AM   #73
HeadTrauma
\_(ツ)_/
 
HeadTrauma's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Antelope Valley, SoCal
Oddometer: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrminbanshee
So if is the case then doesnt this then cancel out the faster pump senario since the crank gear is has one more tooth?
No, it doesn't. The early RFVC oil pump drive setup has 27t on the crank and 48t on the pump for a ratio of 1.78:1. The later engines have 28t on the crank and 47t on the pump for a ratio of 1.68:1, which means the pump spins faster for any given crank RPM and thus moves more oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilja
Maybe pressing the spring down on a scale by a slide caliper. :)
That way you can see how much it is pressed in, and the needed force to do it.
But you would need a steady hand for that lol!
I know how and have calipers, dial indicators and a press, but I don't have a small enough scale.
__________________
1995 XR628R -Lots of goodies...room for more.
"Another breakdown, suicidal shakedown,
Feels like I'm livin' on a chain gang."
HeadTrauma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 06:00 PM   #74
Ghost_Mutant
looking for bionics
 
Ghost_Mutant's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: border of granite & flats
Oddometer: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadTrauma
I know how and have calipers, dial indicators and a press, but I don't have a small enough scale.
I'll look around here for an accurate scale.

If I was measuring the spring, I would put the check valve back into the pump with the spring sticking out of the housing. Then I would find a suitable rod/bolt to compress the spring on a scale up to the normal/closed length and note that force. That measurement could then be compared to the weight of the oil in the tank.

Of course the check valve actually holds back only creeping oil that makes it's way around the rotor parts when the engine is off. Not sure that changes things enough to nullify the spring measurements.

If there were air trapped in the pump that would cause a problem while the engine is running; would slowly turning over the engine with the kick starter and the de-comp valve open get the pump primed? I asked this before, and I'm wondering if the pump can be primed on the trail without having to take anything apart or drain any oil.


scrminbanshee, did you understand why you need both the crank and oil pump gears to up the pump speed?
Ghost_Mutant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2010, 09:54 PM   #75
Ghost_Mutant
looking for bionics
 
Ghost_Mutant's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: border of granite & flats
Oddometer: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Mutant
I'll look around here for an accurate scale.
I do not have a scale fine enough to measure the spring. And I couldn't rig up a working jig to add weight to the spring while measuring the length contraction. Hope others had better luck.

With my other time I had today to mess with the engine parts, I spent it looking at flow sensor ideas. I'll try to write up some thoughts tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Ghost_Mutant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014