How to inspect the valves on a KTM LC4 In three easy steps. - Page 9

meat popsicle · 12-05-2005, 05:58 AM

Hey creeper,

doesn't JPF's method also assume that the adjustment was done properly initially, and that the jam nutz were torqued to the same spec? With his method that becomes a HUGE assumption, and any initial variance among the valves would be amplified over time by any subsequent drift due to variance across jam nut torque values and JPF's "standardized" adjustment...

"Screw tappet into tight. Back off 1/4 turn [=0.15mm]."

Exactly what is "tight"? And how good can YFF be at consistently "backing off 1/4 turn (0.15mm)" evenly on all valves?

Plenty of variables in there including tight workspace that make me think it best to spend the time to measure the valves so that the redundancy of measuring them is a QA/QC check of the mechanic if nothing else.

creeper · 12-05-2005, 12:32 PM

Good observation Meat. Yes, there are several assumptions made when using an X turn equals X clearance method.... too many for my taste.
For example, "tight" can be anything from lightly touching, to X amount of preload on the valve assembly.

Because there has been some "confusion" lately about the best process to use, I opted to post an old response to a common question and let the readers form their own opinions.

What people choose to do in the privacy of their own garage is not my concern.
To publish a method that can, in my opinion lead to possible gross inaccuracies is irresponsible, and only serves to confuse those that may be struggling with the job in the first place.

C

Stu · 12-05-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creeper

To publish a method that can, in my opinion lead to possible gross inaccuracies is irresponsible, and only serves to confuse those that may be struggling with the job in the first place.

C

Precisely. I have found, in teaching others, that there is a great variance between people on what is the correct feeler gauge "feel". This could lead to a wide variance in final tolerances.
I start by having the person learning turn the adjuster nut 90 degrees, snug the lock nut down and practice with the gauge. They seem to get the correct feel learned more quickly and accurately with this reference. (80 degrees on my 450 is more difficult to find.) I have them repeat this several times until they understand how loose or tight the clearance must be to be right.
Stu

meat popsicle · 12-05-2005, 06:24 PM

My earlier dos centavos on that subject, thanks to some private tutoring ala El Jefe

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

... a light touch on the gauge, two fingers is all. and play around to learn something: loosen the jam nut and tighten/loosen and feel the resistance change. I found that from almost no drag to stuck was about 2 hours on the clock! Not much...

Just like learning anything physical, like how to drift a car thru a corner or strokin' that pussy cat until it purrs... you have to play around first. For the car, it was snow covered parking lots

for the kitty, well, I do have some secrets

So play with those feeler gauges, over tighten, over loosen, and get the feel of it in the obviously wrong settings; somewhere in the middle lies a truth.

ChrisC · 12-05-2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

for the kitty, well, I do have some secrets

How long do we have to wait for your pussy stroking secrets Meat?

meat popsicle · 12-06-2005, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisC

How long do we have to wait for your wussy arse-whuppin' secrets Meat?

until we meet sweetheart...

but let's not get sidetracked here ok?

techieguy · 03-14-2006, 06:09 AM

Well, I did my valve adjustment with about 1100 miles. Went OK except for one small item. I removed the lever on the compression release cam. 1st problem was when I removed it, I rotated it so it was actuating on my exhaust valves. Took a good bit of time to figure out why I couldn't get a feeler gauge in there even after I backed out the adjuster screws a LOT.

OK, figured out that one and got the valves to a good .006 lash. Now how do I put the spring, O-ring, O-ring holder, decompression arm, washer and screw back????

After a few hours and very sore fingers I stooped and asked Creeper. His solution was quite simple and worked in about 3 minutes. " Assemble everything with the spring in position but not up over the arm... then lever the spring over the arm with a spring puller or small screwdriver." Well I used a cable wrap and was able to pull the spring arm over the decompression lever without much fuss.

Thanks Creep for the help in my specific issue and in the very well written description.

Techie.

ErrinV · 06-03-2006, 10:10 PM

Thanks again for all in involved in another great tech thread. Did the valves yesterday. Was a tight fit, but doable. I thought about using my headlight the whole time, should've done it. I'll do it next time.

Errin

creeper · 06-03-2006, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrinV

Thanks again for all in involved in another great tech thread. Did the valves yesterday. Was a tight fit, but doable. I thought about using my headlight the whole time, should've done it. I'll do it next time.

Errin

What... Mini-Maglight in the mouth not workin' for ya' bunkie?

ErrinV · 06-03-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creeper

What... Mini-Maglight in the mouth not workin' for ya' bunkie?

That probably would've worked, but the only one I had was a large C battery size. I don't think it would have looked right if someone came in the garage and saw me with that thing in my mouth and lubricants everywhere. They may have gotten the wrong impression.

meat popsicle · 08-01-2006, 09:09 PM

THIS should have been here.

meat popsicle · 11-05-2006, 10:43 PM

Thanks Creeper, your guide was great once again.

I had three loose 7s and something that musta been tigher than a tight 5. The port intake valve was tight. I could barely get the .006 feeler gauge in, whereas the other three were easy (almost no "scotch tape feel" to them).

I was thinking that was probably due to my last adjustment; a bit tight to begin with or perhaps I didn't get the torque value correct on that jam nut. Should we be concerned with how our valve lash clearances vary over time? Does that variance indicate anything or is there too many sources of variability involved?

I adjusted both intakes and left the exhausts as loose 7s. It was once again too late, so I don't get to start her up until tommorow morning. I hope to have good dreams in anticipation.

creeper · 11-05-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

Thanks Creeper, your guide was great once again.

I had three loose 7s and something that musta been tigher than a tight 5. The port intake valve was tight. I could barely get the .006 feeler gauge in, whereas the other three were easy (almost no "scotch tape feel" to them).

I was thinking that was probably due to my last adjustment; a bit tight to begin with or perhaps I didn't get the torque value correct on that jam nut. Should we be concerned with how our valve lash clearances vary over time? Does that variance indicate anything or is there too many sources of variability involved?

I adjusted both intakes and left the exhausts as loose 7s. It was once again too late, so I don't get to start her up until tommorow morning. I hope to have good dreams in anticipation.

No real change over a long hour/mileage period is obviously the best possible "trend".
A small reduction or increase of clearance in a relatively random pattern; .001" or less plus or minus indicates "normal" wear... or a previously inaccurate lash setting.

A reduction or increase, consistently one way or the other, repeating at one or more locations... that could be an indicator of abnormal wear.
Cam lobes, cam bearings and journals, rockerarm cam follower rollers, elephants foot adjuster ball and sockets, stretching valves, battered seats... all show up as unusual and excessive changes in lash.

meat popsicle · 11-06-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creeper

...
A reduction or increase, consistently one way or the other, repeating at one or more locations... that could be an indicator of abnormal wear.
...

So problems can really only be identified with a trend (i.e. multiple valve lash inspections/adjustments), which makes keeping track of our valve lash adjustments is essential to identifying abnormal wear. Roger.

I didn't get to ride today, but I started her up just because I couldn't wait... she started up real easy and idled well.

creeper · 11-06-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

So problems can really only be identified with a trend (i.e. multiple valve lash inspections/adjustments), which makes keeping track of our valve lash adjustments is essential to identifying abnormal wear. Roger.

I didn't get to ride today, but I started her up just because I couldn't wait... she started up real easy and idled well.

Yep... somewhere in the original guide is a reference to keeping track of trends, prolly somewhere in the feeler gauge part.

12-05-2005, 05:58 AM	#121
meat popsicle Ignostic Joined: Feb 2004 Location: Circumlocution Office of Little Dorrit Oddometer: 13,839	Hey creeper, doesn't JPF's method also assume that the adjustment was done properly initially, and that the jam nutz were torqued to the same spec? With his method that becomes a HUGE assumption, and any initial variance among the valves would be amplified over time by any subsequent drift due to variance across jam nut torque values and JPF's "standardized" adjustment... "Screw tappet into tight. Back off 1/4 turn [=0.15mm]." Exactly what is "tight"? And how good can YFF be at consistently "backing off 1/4 turn (0.15mm)" evenly on all valves? Plenty of variables in there including tight workspace that make me think it best to spend the time to measure the valves so that the redundancy of measuring them is a QA/QC check of the mechanic if nothing else. __________________ Kronreif Trunkenpolz Mattighofen LC4 640 Its not so much staying alive; its staying human that counts. meat popsicle screwed with this post 12-05-2005 at 07:21 AM

06-03-2006, 10:10 PM	#128
ErrinV D Boon! Joined: Aug 2003 Location: Alhambra, CA Oddometer: 2,291	Thanks again for all in involved in another great tech thread. Did the valves yesterday. Was a tight fit, but doable. I thought about using my headlight the whole time, should've done it. I'll do it next time. Errin __________________ Thunderbird 1 - '07 KTM 990 "Love comes in spurts!"--Richard Hell

08-01-2006, 09:09 PM	#131
meat popsicle Ignostic Joined: Feb 2004 Location: Circumlocution Office of Little Dorrit Oddometer: 13,839	THIS should have been here. __________________ Kronreif Trunkenpolz Mattighofen LC4 640 Its not so much staying alive; its staying human that counts.

11-05-2006, 10:43 PM	#132
meat popsicle Ignostic Joined: Feb 2004 Location: Circumlocution Office of Little Dorrit Oddometer: 13,839	Valve Lash Inspection #2 completed Thanks Creeper, your guide was great once again. I had three loose 7s and something that musta been tigher than a tight 5. The port intake valve was tight. I could barely get the .006 feeler gauge in, whereas the other three were easy (almost no "scotch tape feel" to them). I was thinking that was probably due to my last adjustment; a bit tight to begin with or perhaps I didn't get the torque value correct on that jam nut. Should we be concerned with how our valve lash clearances vary over time? Does that variance indicate anything or is there too many sources of variability involved? I adjusted both intakes and left the exhausts as loose 7s. It was once again too late, so I don't get to start her up until tommorow morning. I hope to have good dreams in anticipation. __________________ Kronreif Trunkenpolz Mattighofen LC4 640 Its not so much staying alive; its staying human that counts.

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12-05-2005, 12:32 PM	#122
creeper ^OP Still alive... Joined: Dec 2003 Location: Puget Sound Oddometer: 10,718	Good observation Meat. Yes, there are several assumptions made when using an X turn equals X clearance method.... too many for my taste. For example, "tight" can be anything from lightly touching, to X amount of preload on the valve assembly. Because there has been some "confusion" lately about the best process to use, I opted to post an old response to a common question and let the readers form their own opinions. What people choose to do in the privacy of their own garage is not my concern. To publish a method that can, in my opinion lead to possible gross inaccuracies is irresponsible, and only serves to confuse those that may be struggling with the job in the first place. C

03-14-2006, 06:09 AM	#127
techieguy Lost in the woods Joined: Aug 2004 Location: Bucks County,PA Oddometer: 354	Well, I did my valve adjustment with about 1100 miles. Went OK except for one small item. I removed the lever on the compression release cam. 1st problem was when I removed it, I rotated it so it was actuating on my exhaust valves. Took a good bit of time to figure out why I couldn't get a feeler gauge in there even after I backed out the adjuster screws a LOT. OK, figured out that one and got the valves to a good .006 lash. Now how do I put the spring, O-ring, O-ring holder, decompression arm, washer and screw back???? After a few hours and very sore fingers I stooped and asked Creeper. His solution was quite simple and worked in about 3 minutes. " Assemble everything with the spring in position but not up over the arm... then lever the spring over the arm with a spring puller or small screwdriver." Well I used a cable wrap and was able to pull the spring arm over the decompression lever without much fuss. Thanks Creep for the help in my specific issue and in the very well written description. Techie.