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Old 03-21-2010, 08:49 AM   #106
Lost Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1fa
Chi... That's just shy of 139 miles a day... How do your cars hold out?

I don't own a car.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:32 AM   #107
itsatdm
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My theory on quality on the 800 and the singles is that BMW farms out more componants on these bikes than any other. They are more BMW assembled bikes, than actually manufactured bikes. Sure they are spec"d by BMW, but I would guess the sub assemblies go to the low bidder. I am sure there is quality control but I don't know if BMW is the one doing that. Wheels come to mind, as I would bet BMW receives them already assembled. No way to check bore if the bearings are installed or heat treatment of rims either.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:54 AM   #108
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTown
My front wheel looks something like yours, bent to hell from a ride in Death Valley. @ 30PSI

Get used to shitty BMW dealer service and warranty coverage denied, it comes with the GS at no extra cost.

My Bike:
Rear wheel bearings and hub failure- denied. cost me about $400
Front end steering head bearing failure- denied. cost me about $350
Front wheel bent- denied.
Broken chain the first day of purchase.
Add in these still unfixed/unexplained issues: two major oil leaks (still had the bent valve cover on it, though I've asked for it to be replaced) , stalling in the rain, random overheating, transmission slipping, stalling when left idling for more than 1 minute, and a gas gauge/computer system that I PAID for as an option doesn't work for shit even after being serviced twice. My bike was at a dealer for 6 weeks, with nothing but a bill and no answers at the end.

No love for BMW NA or it's network of shitty dealers here.

I feel the vast majority of GS owners idea of rough or long distance riding are quite different from mine.
25,000 miles in a matter of 6 months of riding, never holding back on the GS, it's my experience that BMW obviously DID NOT have the kinks worked out on the 09's, and should have supported the bike better, especially for us "BETA TESTERS". I half expected to have a few issues with the brand new design bike, but the service and support I have had is just plain wrong.

To me it's obvious BMW's Adventure Marketing Department is far more skilled than the Adventure Machine Making Department....
On a positive note, the GS sure is a decent road bike.
Be really interesting to see BMW's warranty histories and recall/dealer visit/failed parts data. Of course BMW stopped releasing this info some years ago.

The twins have laid a rich ground work of events to make what you say quite plausible, yet from owners of F800GS's I know and from various test rides on them, I hear very little negative. But as you point out, most riders don't do any serious off road. But several have done long adventure rides with minimal problems. Always a risk being in the Beta group! I did it on the Vstrom in 2002 and got lucky. Not ONE issue in 70,000 miles. Bike was so good I got bored!

I spent some time on a rental F800GS. Very early release, 1st year model with ... 30,000 miles! Idled like a Rolls Royce ... smooth, seamless and quiet. Perfect suspension and handling on tight, rough twisty paved roads.
Normally a rental can show tell tale signs of failure or things getting "loose". Even a good bike. Not this F800GS. I was impressed how well it rode with 30K on it .... and I was looking for problems. None found.

Are you dealing with Brown Motor Works in SoCal? I would Name & Blame the dealer who is denying your claims. Customers have a right to know this, IMO.

From my experience with dealers it seems more often than not you need the dealer to step up on warranty issues for you and "sell" your claim to BMW NA. Some dealers are better than others.

IMO, wheel bearings, head bearings, hub, chain, fuel gauge, should ALL be covered, no questions asked. The bent wheel I can see their case claiming abuse or "racing". If you ever went to court be sure to bring up all the many cases of failed wheel bearings on BMW F650's. Very common failure.

I would pursue BMW NA legally and advise you intend to make these issues very public. Not that they care, as sales are off the charts.

Adv Grifter screwed with this post 03-22-2010 at 10:32 PM
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Old 03-21-2010, 11:32 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
My theory on quality on the 800 and the singles is that BMW farms out more componants on these bikes than any other. They are more BMW assembled bikes, than actually manufactured bikes. Sure they are spec"d by BMW, but I would guess the sub assemblies go to the low bidder. I am sure there is quality control but I don't know if BMW is the one doing that. Wheels come to mind, as I would bet BMW receives them already assembled. No way to check bore if the bearings are installed or heat treatment of rims either.
As more and more BMW (both car and bike) production shifts to China and Taiwan it will be interesting to see if BMW can maintain (or improve?) quality. It may be a low bidder problem or it could be a "cutting corners" issue as the Chinese subcontractors try to increase profits. If you come in with a very low bid, chances are you are operating in the red. The only way to recover is to cut corners. Nothing new here.

The Japanese face this same conundrum, the difference is they've been dealing with the Chinese and Koreans for 20 years, so perhaps understand the rules of the game better? They source many parts and assemblies from China, Korea and Taiwan but remain more quiet about it.

I've been riding a new Suzuki GS500F, the "upgraded" GS500 with a fairing. The forks, shock and brake calipers bear logos I've never seen or heard of .... and they are all clearly, low budget Asian market junk. (probably "low bidder" Chinese parts?) In BMW's case they also have Rotax in the mix. And Rotax means Bombardier. Both companies are at risk if too many repeated failures appear and become endemic with the brand.
Hard to "spin" your way out of reality if BMW and Rotax let things go that far. My guess is they will turn this around and do really well and the bikes will get better and better.
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Old 03-21-2010, 12:35 PM   #110
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The dealers in question and lot's of photo's documenting my issues are all in my RR.
It's not one dealer, it's more like 6 different dealers this bike has been to.
Chicago BMW being THE WORST experience and what really put me over the edge with my very negative attitude towards BMW brand, though there's more BS dealer experiences and dealings with BMW NA themselves too.
A&S BMW where I bought the bike denied the steering head bearings claim, and failed to find/fix the intermittent problems while having the bike for weeks.

Funny how the good experiences I've had don't really stand out.

I think the sourcing out parts theory is plausible, my BMW 12R has more than double the same kind of hard miles of the GS and not one issue.

I've been going through this like it/hate it thing with the GS for a while.
While it's hardly a dirt bike, it is a comfortable long distance tourer giving me some more off tarmac options than on my R.
Despite it popularity around here with all "ADV" riders... in reality the bike's resale value is for shit, especially with high miles and fair condition.
I know, I tried to sell it, it's just not realistic for me to lose 50% of what I spent.
Yeah, it's that bad... So I'm stuck with it.

Most of the ongoing issues I listed are intermittent, so I'm just waiting for them to surface again. Of course when a dealer has it, it's fine.
Since dealers have refused to warranty things like steering head bearings after my dumb ass has PAID for dealer service (dealers themselves checked the head bearings torque) all it's done is make me not want to spend a dime on service at a dealer, not buy ANY BMW products, and when given the opportunity tell whoever will listen to my story.

It's not that I believe this bike should be perfect since it's a BMW, a man made machine is a machine and will break. I just believe the company could have stood behind the product much, much better.

A few hundred dollars worth of bearings or labor has cost BMW many tens of thousands of my money I will NEVER spend with them in my lifetime.

More than likely I will invest in some good suspension and try to make the best of what I have with the Yellow Bitch, since the stock suspension is for shit, and not much better with the hyperpro springs I have.
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Old 03-21-2010, 12:47 PM   #111
johngil
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When the time comes...

Fuel leak and a cigarette.

I'm stuck w/ my 800. Nobody wants a dirty bike it seems. They just want to see pictures.
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Old 03-21-2010, 02:13 PM   #112
PackMule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTown
My front wheel looks something like yours, bent to hell from a ride in Death Valley. @ 30PSI

Get used to shitty BMW dealer service and warranty coverage denied, it comes with the GS at no extra cost.

My Bike:
Rear wheel bearings and hub failure- denied. cost me about $400
Front end steering head bearing failure- denied. cost me about $350
Front wheel bent- denied.
Broken chain the first day of purchase.
Add in these still unfixed/unexplained issues: two major oil leaks (still had the bent valve cover on it, though I've asked for it to be replaced) , stalling in the rain, random overheating, transmission slipping, stalling when left idling for more than 1 minute, and a gas gauge/computer system that I PAID for as an option doesn't work for shit even after being serviced twice. My bike was at a dealer for 6 weeks, with nothing but a bill and no answers at the end.

Why on earth do you still have the bike with an experience like that?
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Old 03-21-2010, 02:39 PM   #113
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fyi...when will they ever learn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckster
You will find that BMW get their rims from three or four sources, some will be better than others, a few years ago KTM had a bunch of rim issues which they corrected, the BMW response surprises me.
and you won't believe my shock when i found out that the very rims manufactured by Behr in old east germany
were now being recycled on the f800GS

fyi,,i can just handle the rim and ding it with a screwdriver or drill it with my countersink and tell ya if we have a6000 series alloy or softer,,or the better 7000 series stuff and the even tougher A60 Excels,,,

personally,after trying to contact them and give them some serious feedback,,,i concluded... no one is truly in terested,,,and there is a thing called karma... i think these rims showing up on this bike are a form of karmic justice
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:53 PM   #114
Adv Grifter
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My experience with Behr rims goes back to the mid 90's and several Baja rides that turned into nightmares for GS riders. This trend continued into the oil heads, but at some point I believe BMW changed something? You 1200GS guys can school me here.

Chi Town,
Since you've had (and have) other BMW's you must know that many owners who are capable do most of their own work. I learned from my BMW dealer mechanic drinking buddies back in the late 80's to never, ever bring your bike in to a dealer. (even if my buddies are working)

You really have to learn to do things your self. Back then (and I guess now as well) fellow owners would do Tech days and help each other out learning all the various foibles of the bike. Now I see guys doing DVD's and such.

This does not sit well with some BMW owners who are not willing to jump in and get greasy. Some of these guys are, rightfully so, super pissed off when they get a $800 bill for a basic service.

I wish you all the luck with your bike and getting it back on track as a good Adv. Touring tool (without the heavy Baja type pounding perhaps?)
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:01 PM   #115
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fyi BEHRS rims on F800GS vs the 1100/1150/1200 GS series X-laced wheels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugwest
Behr is getting some hatin' in this thread, but it bears pointing out that the rims on the oilhead 11xxGS's must be some of the stoutest spoke rims ever issued. I have hit tarmac potholes dramatic enough to get me off the bike looking for squared rims, and aggressive curb hits are all in a day's work on my bike.
Possibly different alloy composition, but from here it looks like Behr make a quality rim
FYI,,,Behr Mfg's forte is building nifty coolers/radiators and stuff fo BMW and other manufacturers ,i have it on good first hand info that at the time Akront the venerable spanish rim manufacturer went out of business circa mid '90s they had been supplying the majority of rims for bmw including the new X-laced rims for the r100GS/pd the R1100 GS,,,these rims were a stiffer alloy and were damn near perfectly tound not unlike their successors.... somehow BMW twisted Behrs arm and got them to start a rim building division,,,,and when you see what issues forth from that place one can tell they don't either care or like what they are doing.

the factory is situated in old east germany where much work gets outsourced because of the low wages still paid there,,, 3 times have i stood at it's entrance over the last 5 years trying to talk to somebody about improving /rectifying the anomalies that make for not round rims,,,all to no avail...i did learn a lot of other info that explains so much indifference to the rectification process...

if BWOE a x-laced wheel that many a customer had to buy because 'they must've bent it' at circa $1,300 a pop and BMW doesn't have someone to repair it,,,why would they need to get excited about that if they had less than $150 in a complete wheel assembly...no wonder they find it easier to just warranty it ....the dilemna though is that often the warranty /replacement wheel assy may be just as bad or worse than the wheel you just handed in....

FYI,,in an effort to create distance from the bad rap/reputation the Behr rims were getting some marketing whiz sent in to clean up behr's act under the SAXESS brand... supposed to be better and stronger than excel...well thy did make a few rims for Kirsi out of 7000 series alloy and a few others for MX sizes when lo and behold they put the SAXESS label on behr rims sourced for the X-challenge series bmws...only to find out that it's the same pot metal like in your and the ktm rims.... ..someone over there is not genetically engineered for basic business smarts,,,in one swoop SAXESS = Behr standard issue butter alloy..that brand name has just been turned into untrustworthy strength equivalent to all the crap coming from china.

get this !!! ...complete front and rear wheel assemblies with discs /sprockets etc plus whatever color for circa $500,,i ache for all the poor suckers getting em...shredding /burning a $500 bill would have been more cost effective...

and even my beloved DID rims that i've built thousands of in years gone by came up with a trick mud shedding rim a few years back that sported a softer alloy and went down the tubes,,,they are trying a come back with the dirt-stars [same marketing idea as saxess/behr and excel/takasago],,still the ones we need are far heavier then need be...

just a little light for those that care to know what goes on behind the scenes...

w

same goes for the F800GS wheels,,those complete wheel assemblies probably cost less than $100 ,,,use the same rims as supplied to the ill fated KTM 950 and 640 adventures from '05 on,,bottom line they are too soft and too wide for off road use.

Now to the assertion made above about the superior 1100/1150/1200GS x-laced rims being superior...HOG-wash...they sport the same soft alloy used in your F800GS rims...what makes them hold up is the superiority of the X-laced wheel design,,, a design IMHO that actually locks the rim in place via great cross triangulation...and yes these rims can bend ..i fix more than enough of them every week,,and those rims can be straightened as well as yours too

your F800GS rims are relatively easy to straighten because of the soft alloy,,,we do that routinely for those that insist on spending little money,,,however is it a smart investment ????,,only if you are offing your bike or mainly stay on VERY smooth roads with your tire pumped up to 38-40psi

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Old 03-21-2010, 04:20 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter
]Since you've had (and have) other BMW's you must know that many owners who are capable do most of their own work. I learned from my BMW dealer mechanic drinking buddies back in the late 80's to never, ever bring your bike in to a dealer. (even if my buddies are working)


I wish you all the luck with your bike and getting it back on track as a good Adv. Touring tool (without the heavy Baja type pounding perhaps?)

With the exception of a few oil changes here and there I've maintained my 12R fully for 60,000 miles. It's easy. I'm very mechanically inclined to say the least.
I have done the oil changes, and have had the valve cover apart trying to fix the oil leak while in the woods in the Yukon, but since I've had so many problems the bike has been at a lot of dealers in my travels, sometimes out of convenience they do the maintenance.

Gina's BMW in Iowa did my 24,000 mile service for example, along with a bunch of recall/warranty work.
I went way out of my way to go to a dealer with a stellar reputation for "the best" mechanics and service with all my problems.
I like Gina, and her people at the shop. I feel the treated me great, and truly cared for getting my problematic GS fixed. They did find the culprit to my oil leak two other dealers had missed and sent me on my way. The valve cover itself is not square and that's what's causing the leak.

Now with those nice things said, it wasn't but late that very night after leaving Gina's while doing a 900 mile high speed dash to Denver that the GS started to overheat, with all the lights flashing... and then the next day when on some jeep trails in the Rocky Mountains the transmission started slipping in first gear.
The story of my life with this GS goes on and on.

OH well, I'm just going to ride the dam thing since it cost me so much, is worth so little and hope for the best. It is fun to ride when I'm not thinking about it being a BMW.... We'll see later this week in Death Valley how good my luck is....


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Old 03-21-2010, 05:33 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTown

I've been going through this like it/hate it thing with the GS for a while.
While it's hardly a dirt bike, it is a comfortable long distance tourer giving me some more off tarmac options than on my R.
Despite it popularity around here with all "ADV" riders... in reality the bike's resale value is for shit, especially with high miles and fair condition.
I know, I tried to sell it, it's just not realistic for me to lose 50% of what I spent.
Yeah, it's that bad... So I'm stuck with it.
1. Usually when people try to sell something they try to say something good about it to potential buyers.

2. I thought you had traded it in for a XR650R as described here
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...427909&page=58
and
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...427909&page=61
Although I doubt it...
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:37 PM   #118
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[QUOTE=Lion BR]1. Usually when people try to sell something they try to say something good about it to potential buyers.

2. I thought you had traded it in for a XR650R as described here


True, my GS is AWESOME! It's taken me to far away exciting places just like it will you if you buy it!
Buy now and I'll throw in the actual tent used in my adventures, an autographed photo, along with the custom GPS tank box!
Only if you buy it Now!
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:58 PM   #119
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It always interests me when I hear stories like ChiTown's.

I have had nothing but excellent service from my dealer and they've always stood behind my bikes.

Usually when I hear tales of woe like Joe's I chalk it up to the poster being a dick and getting his just deserts. However, I know Joe and that's not the case with him. He's just been screwed. Part of it I think was due to his bike being one of the first that failed so there was no precedent. Anyone who took a failed rear wheel bearing to a dealer today would be almost certain to have it covered under warranty.

I also think some folks have too high an expectation for their bikes. With modification, the 800GS can do just about anything. Stock they can still do a lot but not what some of us ask of them. I'm ok with that and expected it when I bought the bike. I was fully prepared to have to "improve" certain facets of the bike. The wheels should be the last thing for me to do...
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:18 PM   #120
Lost Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS
Usually when I hear tales of woe like Joe's I chalk it up to the poster being a dick and getting his just deserts. However, I know Joe and that's not the case with him. He's just been screwed. Part of it I think was due to his bike being one of the first that failed so there was no precedent. Anyone who took a failed rear wheel bearing to a dealer today would be almost certain to have it covered under warranty.
Thanks Scott, though I am kind of a dick... just not to dealerships when in person.


I was among the first to report most of these problems so you're right, there's was no precedence set, and what you said makes sense.
Too bad for me, it sucks because I feel my hard work "contribution" with my RR Photo's and stories of the GS surly helped BMW GS sales. Only to be screwed around for pennies in the big picture by the company I've helped and given my business to for many years.

Potential customers reading mine and others comments, and seeing photo's of these failures and subsequent poor dealer/manufacture support might make a difference in sales considering the extremely high cost of a BMW... Is it worth it for BMW to save a buck here or there on bearings, or other cheap parts?

While we are in the minority with having problems with the 800GS, I'm not making it up, and if I was in the market for a "ultimate" adventure bike and read all of these negative stories it would make me look at other brands a little harder since I'm usually the one in ten to get the lemon - as we see here.

I'd imagine by 2011 or 2012 they will have the bugs and QC of their Chinese parts under better control and the 8GS will be a solid performer...
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